The word "vegan"

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Re: The word "vegan"

Postby EvanG » Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:18 pm

veggylvr wrote:. If Christians wanted to discuss how some churches are spewing hateful rhetoric, which doesn't reflect their views, would that be offensive to all Christians? No.

Agreed. Discussing this kind of thing is fine. McDougall, Novick, you, and many others do this without being insulting. For example, Jeff's post here is very insightful http://www.drmcdougall.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=33542&start=88
It seems to me that people on this board should strive to stick to that type of direct message.

If people in this church started denying that they were Christian, that would seem weird. If they started making fun of Christians in general, as a way to distance themselves from any negative associations with Christianity, that would seem petty and futile.

This is an appropriate topic because people are going to refer to us as vegans whether we like it or not, or choose to use the term ourselves, and these negative attitudes reflect on us.

Agreed. I am learning more appreciation for the issues that arise when you say that you are vegan. At that point a lot of preconceptions come up, and there is a trade-off between being succinct and avoiding inaccurate notions.

I would not avoid calling myself a vegan or object to others referring to me as one. I do try to emphasize other aspects. Even my wife will say, at least it's vegan if she has some junk food. So, the practical aspect hit close to home over here, and I appreciated Jeff's post on this.

I try not to make fun of vegans by making negative generalizations. That seems counterproductive. When others do it, they seem petty and a little cowardly to me. I tried using the Christianity analogy to make my reasoning more clear.

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Re: The word "vegan"

Postby AnnGriff » Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:21 pm

I've never understood people that get so easily offended. My value and importance, what I believe, who I associate with, and what I eat is not based on what other people think about me. I refuse to give others that power over me, and honestly it is none of their business. I am a Christian so I celebrate Christmas. If I wish someone a Merry Christmas and they don't celebrate Christmas so what? If they are offended that I would even suggest that they be associated with Christmas that is their problem, not mine. I don't celebrate Kwanza but if I was wished a happy Kwanza I would smile and say thank you. What does irk me is that I have to sometimes hunt for Christmas cards that actually mention Christmas and not the generic "holiday". Am I offended? Nah, more just saddened that the real meaning of Christmas is being diluted. I am so tired of feeling this social preassure to tread lightly so that I don't offend anyone. It is so much easier to just react to people and what they say then to step back and think about what the intent was of the other person. If you come to the conclusion that their intent was to be mean or rude then again, that's their problem, not mine and I am not going to give them the power/authority to make me feel a certain way. You can call me what ever you want-vegan, preachy, hypocritical, or think whatever you want about me. You still won't affect who I know I am.
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Re: The word "vegan"

Postby f1jim » Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:57 pm

Excellent points Ann
So much of this is all based on experience. One person has the life experience of meeting a few preachy vegans and that colors their view and tends to reinforce the belief their are armies of them out there. Another person adopts the vegan lifestyle and runs into a couple people that make those generalizations and they feel they are being victimized by offensive people. So which is the absolute truth? There is no absolute truth. Both people are living out their lives using the part of the brain we were given to make judgements about situations. Is everyones experiences going to lead them to the same conclusions? Hardly. So they are right and they are wrong. Not every vegan is preachy, not everyone of them likes greasy food. Not everyone that makes that statement is attacking you. We tend to not only make quick judgements of situations we also make generalized comments based on that experience. We make a statement from that body of experience knowing it will resonate with others. Sometimes it does sometimes it annoys based on their prior experience. It's possible they are both right and both wrong. After following this thread it's clear that's the case.
If you are going to make shoot from the hip comments be prepared to catch some heat from someone that will be offended. If you interact with humans on a discussion forum long enough someone will say something that will offend you if you are easily disturbed. I do both. But I'm learning to roll with punches and am learning more diplomacy. I'm going to be something at the age of 95. Just you watch and see.
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Re: The word "vegan"

Postby Lesliec1 » Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:25 pm

veggylvr wrote:And if we can't say "some" or "many" in a discussion about people's bad behavior, or critique the behavior of "some" or "many" in an outside group (such as SAD eaters, doctors, political parties, etc), then I don't see how we can have any debate. You're essentially shutting down free speech.


We can't critique people without using offensive language?
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Re: The word "vegan"

Postby Wild4Stars » Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:39 pm

Lesliec1 wrote:
We can't critique people without using offensive language?


"Offensive" is in the ear of the beholder. If you listen for offense you are very likely to find it.
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Re: The word "vegan"

Postby Lesliec1 » Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:47 pm

Wild4Stars wrote:
Lesliec1 wrote:
We can't critique people without using offensive language?


"Offensive" is in the ear of the beholder. If you listen for offense you are very likely to find it.


Yes, I think many people have already said that. To me it just implies that nothing is ever offensive and we can all have a big free-for-all of objectionable comments.

Just be nicer for goodness sake. What's so hard? I don't even understand so much debate about such a simple thing.
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Re: The word "vegan"

Postby BlueHeron » Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:05 pm

Lesliec1 wrote:
Wild4Stars wrote:
Lesliec1 wrote:
We can't critique people without using offensive language?


"Offensive" is in the ear of the beholder. If you listen for offense you are very likely to find it.


Yes, I think many people have already said that. To me it just implies that nothing is ever offensive and we can all have a big free-for-all of objectionable comments.

Just be nicer for goodness sake. What's so hard? I don't even understand so much debate about such a simple thing.


It shouldn't be hard. But some people feel very strongly about their right to be offensive. Anyone who asks to be treated with respect is deemed too sensitive. Sadly, such people aren't going to change their minds. They're also the reason the internet is so often such an unpleasant place. But kudos to you Leslie for trying.
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Re: The word "vegan"

Postby Debbie » Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:17 pm

Merry Christmas.
Happy Hannuka (sp)
Happy Kwanzaa.
And if you dont celebrate any of the above,

Happy Winter

Jim's post from last night is right on. I went to bed at 1030 ish and there were 143 posts or so. I just came on for the first time since and there's 170+ with the exact same thing being discussed. Heck it's not even about being vegan or not anymore but semantics. Point taken. One person found another persons comment offending. That is their right. We had backers on both sides. Can we move on?
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Re: The word "vegan"

Postby scooterpie » Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:23 pm

And let us not forget Festivus--for the rest of us, as the salutation goes. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festivus)
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Re: The word "vegan"

Postby Theodore » Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:56 pm

a certain someone wrote:So should he describe himself as paleo ? Would we understand if he didn't want to be associated with those monkey-brain munchers ?

Now that's offensive.
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Re: The word "vegan"

Postby Wild4Stars » Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:03 pm

I've been away from the McDougall forums for awhile and now I remember why. I'm going back to the friendly, supportive group on facebook.
"If your lifestyle doesn't control your body, your body will eventually control your lifestyle." Ern Baxter
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Re: The word "vegan"

Postby rickfm » Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:26 pm

And this thread just keeps going...

and going...

and going...

and going...

and going...

and going...

and going...
~Rick

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Re: The word "vegan"

Postby JohnLarson » Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:42 pm

Wild4Stars wrote:I've been away from the McDougall forums for awhile and now I remember why. I'm going back to the friendly, supportive group on facebook.


There is a Facebook group?
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Re: The word "vegan"

Postby veggylvr » Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:43 pm

Yes, I think many people have already said that. To me it just implies that nothing is ever offensive and we can all have a big free-for-all of objectionable comments.

Just be nicer for goodness sake. What's so hard? I don't even understand so much debate about such a simple thing
.

If by nice you mean that no one can ever be critical, that's just not realistic. This a discussion board where both pros and cons of various issues are weighed. If we only talked about the pros, that wouldn't be much of a discussion would it? How boring!

I'm sorry you took the fact that some people view some vegans (not you) as preachy "cupcake pushers". I personally found that phrase funny. An interesting way to make the point about some vegans having terrible diets. However, if that comment had been directed at you, as in "Leslie is a preachy cupcake pusher," I would've found it rude and completely understood you being so offended.

So, no one is suggesting a free-for-all of objectionable comments, but neither should anyone fear making a general critique, based on their own experiences, as Jim said. I found this thread very helpful in better understanding the associations some here have with the word "vegan". I never would've guessed that before.
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Re: The word "vegan"

Postby Lesliec1 » Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:11 pm

Forgive me for seeming rude but I'm not going to answer anyone any more or this will go on forever.
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