Dr. McDougall on the Livin' La Vida Low Carb Show!!!!

For those questions and discussions on the McDougall program that don’t seem to fit in any other forum.

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Re: Dr. McDougall on the Livin' La Vida Low Carb Show!!!!

Postby patty » Tue Jun 04, 2013 3:50 am

I am really enjoying the audio "Healthy Eating Healthy World"... Below Dr. McDougall is quoted about Eskimos..

Got Osteoporosis?

You may have first heard about osteoporosis from television ads. Perhaps you have seen the one for Boniva, in which Sally Field talks about not getting enough calcium from such foods as yogurt, spinach, and cheese. Little does she know that two out of three of those calcium-rich foods are doing much more harm than good. It is truly incredible that the very advice given by the dairy industry to control osteoporosis (drink more milk) has actually been shown by studies to aid in the promotion of the disease. Americans consume more cow’s milk and its products per person than almost every other population in the world. So Americans should have extremely strong bones, right? Unfortunately, we don’t. A study published in 2000 shows that American women age fifty and older have one of the highest rates of hip fractures in the world. The only countries with higher rates are Australia, New Zealand, and some countries in Europe, where people consume even more milk than people in the United States.[ 76] How is this happening?

Researchers have found that animal protein, unlike plant protein, increases the acid load in the body. The body responds by fighting this unnaturally acidic environment. To neutralize the acid, the body uses calcium, which acts as a base. This calcium is pulled from the bones, and the calcium loss weakens them, putting them at greater risk for fracture.[ 77]

This startling fact bears repeating. Science has shown that drinking cow’s milk and consuming other dairy products is one of the leading causes of osteoporosis. In countries where the percent of calories from animal-based foods approaches zero, this and other chronic diseases are almost completely unknown.

Dr. McDougall cites studies of two different populations that suggest that the higher the level of animal protein intake, the higher the rate of osteoporosis:

Members of the Bantu tribe living in Africa on low-protein vegetable diets are essentially free of osteoporosis. Genetic relatives of the Bantu in the United States consume plenty of meat and dairy and have osteoporosis nearly as commonly as white people in the United States.

Eskimos consume a diet very high in animal protein from fish and very high in calcium from the fish bones, yet these very physically active people have one of the highest rates of osteoporosis in the world.[ 78]

As with heart disease, diabetes, and cancer, there is no lack of information on what causes osteoporosis. It’s hardly news that would comfort the American Dairy Association, one of the largest special interest groups in the United States. In Chapter 8, we explore more of the barriers that scientists face in getting out the word about their findings. For now, you should be aware that the link between nutrition and all of these diseases is not based on some isolated study of a mouse population of ten. These studies can be found in numerous medical journals and all over the internet.


Aloha, patty
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Re: Dr. McDougall on the Livin' La Vida Low Carb Show!!!!

Postby ulialen » Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:09 am

The validity of the paleo or low-carb diet is the same as "superstition".
In fact the majority of the low-carb promoters are not scientist or doctors,
they are sometimes journalist as Taubes or only podcaster with any qualifies in nutrition as Moore or people that write on the web the first stupid thing that come in their mind.

And people that cant explain a phenomena with the science with what they explain? with superstition.
Low carb promoters trick people with argument that are the superstitios part of the nutrition.
Plantbased nutritionist support people basing on more than 50 years of solid science of nutrition, scientist and nobel prices as goldstein and brown of nutrition.

Dear, Mark Shields, you expressed doubt about ldl cholesterol even if there are more than 50 years of studies that assert that is the most known and verified risk factor of hearth disease.
So give me only one reason because i have to believe to you or to a journalist as taubes or to a podcaster as Moore instead that believe to noble prices winner as Goldstein and Brown (and many others. there are 13 scientist that have won noble prices for studies about the danger of cholesterol), instead that to real nutritionist graduated as Mcdougall, Barnard, Esselstyn, instead that to scientist as Campbell, Goldstein,Brown, Keys.

Science is not the superstitions of the lowcarb promoters.
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Re: Dr. McDougall on the Livin' La Vida Low Carb Show!!!!

Postby Lacey » Tue Jun 04, 2013 6:34 am

Kiki wrote:Wow, BBQ. Is that 16 supplements including a full spectrum multivitamin? (17 if you include coconut oil?) How can that study really be a study about the effects of diet with all that 'noise'?

Wow, I finally had time to read the link bbq posted and I agree with you Kiki, with so many interventions how could one conclude that a dietary change will be responsible for any change? "Progressive exercise," "Neuromuscular electrical stimulation delivered using the electrical therapy device EMPI 300 PV," "meditation," "self massage," " learning," in addition to the "Wahls diet" and the 16 supplements plus coconut oil. If the patients improve how will they be able to conclude that it was the "paleo" diet that caused it?
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Re: Dr. McDougall on the Livin' La Vida Low Carb Show!!!!

Postby McDgirl » Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:59 am

But, hey, the upside of all this is that you can get a coupon for Glycosolve on that webpage!!! Just look at how much J Moore loves it!

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Re: Dr. McDougall on the Livin' La Vida Low Carb Show!!!!

Postby vgpedlr » Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:01 am

I finally got a chance to listen and I thought it was pretty good. I've been hoping for a long time this would happen. I like Jimmy Moore as a podcaster/blogger, even though I disagree with him.

Good points:
McD sticking to STARCH and not being sucked into debating refined carbs
Great rebuttal to the Eskimo/Inuit question (Why are low carbers so enamored of a sick population?)
Jimmy Moore kept speaking of his "metabolic damage" without explaining (no data)
He never did answer the repeated question of why he has struggled with his weight
But, he continued his n=1 argument of success as proof
McD showing that the literature and research does not support Moore
Moore suggested that it is "a lot more" than n=1. Really? Who are they? What studies have been done on them?
Credibility: Dr. McDougall as a medical doctor with 40 years of experience, and a published researcher.

Bad:
It did get too personal
Jimmy Moore has lost close to 80 lbs. in the last year by tweaking his diet. He should have had a chance to explain.
He has been open about his weight struggles, and what could have been a more civil discussion was acrimonious.
The Veg Source videos (I agree with the content, but I think they're a flame war)

In the end, kudos to both Dr. McDougall and Jimmy Moore for the interview. While his listeners are probably as interested in starch as we are in their message, who knows? Some forum members crossed over because of messages like this one.
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Re: Dr. McDougall on the Livin' La Vida Low Carb Show!!!!

Postby vgpedlr » Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:09 am

Oh, and the constipation discussion didn't help.

But I liked McD's reminder of treating 5000+ patients in a residential setting for twenty years now. Where is there a low-carb/paleo doctor successfully treating thousands of patients to regain health?
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Re: Dr. McDougall on the Livin' La Vida Low Carb Show!!!!

Postby f1jim » Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:21 am

One can't explain weight loss yo-yo-ing unless you have a significant track record of keeping it off and staying healthy. Dr. McDougall has a track record of decades in that regard. As the videos pointed out who in the low carb community has that track record? Perhaps one? Out of how many? Contrast that with our gurus...McDougall, Caldwell and Rip Esselstyn, Barnard, Campbell, Diehl, Klapper, Greger, Popper, Novick, and on and on. Is their a trend here?
I wouldn't give Dr. McDOugall much of an edge just becasue he is an MD. Plenty of them are clueless on nutrition. I give him the edge because he knows the data, he knows the history, he has the clinical experience. The same could be said of Pritikin who wasn't a physician.
If a guy on the street who is 90 years old, a heavy smoker, and a heavy drinker came online with a blog promoting those ideas for everyone would we embrace the concept? What if he was charismatic, would we find his ideas more acceptable? I hope not.
Jimmy Moore doesn't even have age going for him and his track record is as spotty as one can be.
It appears that exchange was a long time in coming. In some ways I think Dr. McDougall lowered the bar in even appearing. Yet, he stuck to his message, pointed out the flaws in Jimmy Moores ideas, and put out the message to those that were open. He probably bit his lip and did the interview knowing he was giving some credibility to this guy that doesn't deserve to be on the same stage.
While adopting this diet and lifestyle program I have reversed my heart disease, high cholesterol, hypertension, and lost 54 lbs. You can follow my story at https://www.drmcdougall.com/james-brown/
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Re: Dr. McDougall on the Livin' La Vida Low Carb Show!!!!

Postby RichardK » Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:38 am

I had to listen the interview for a second time, McDougall did such a good job.

It's amazing how Jimmy Moore thinks his metabolic markers are excellent when his TC cholesterol is over 500. Well, he is a Southern creationist, so I don't think stepping from the Darwinian paradigm in regards to the lipid theory is not too big step for him to make either. The pseudoscientific nonsense that Jimmy Moore puts up is just stunning.
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Re: Dr. McDougall on the Livin' La Vida Low Carb Show!!!!

Postby Mark Shields » Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:07 am

Good Doc, before you pick out one study on Paleo where an intense exercise plan was followed, who knows what that stress from CrossFit would do, let's not forget other studies done on a Paleo Diet

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2724493/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19209185

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19604407
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Re: Dr. McDougall on the Livin' La Vida Low Carb Show!!!!

Postby f1jim » Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:20 am

All very short durations studies comparing "paleo" with what?
Compare that with the details in the study provided by Dr. McDougall.
We know what the effects of exercise are.
The devil is in the details.
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Re: Dr. McDougall on the Livin' La Vida Low Carb Show!!!!

Postby chris. » Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:24 am

Mark Shields wrote:Good Doc, before you pick out one study on Paleo where an intense exercise plan was followed, who knows what that stress from CrossFit would do, let's not forget other studies done on a Paleo Diet

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2724493/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19209185

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19604407


You can always find a study out there that supports a contrarian view.

People need to examine the entire body of literature, the totality of the evidence.

The science overwhelmingly supports a plant-based, high-carbohydrate diet.
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Re: Dr. McDougall on the Livin' La Vida Low Carb Show!!!!

Postby JohnLarson » Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:35 am

McDgirl wrote:But, hey, the upside of all this is that you can get a coupon for Glycosolve on that webpage!!! Just look at how much J Moore loves it!

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I think this ad sums it all up. I am glad Mr. Moore had Dr. McDougall as a guest and he was able to promote his book and this web site.

The more I click on links to Paleo websites, the more I feel like we are kindred spirits. Both camps know the SAD is bad. I think some of them realize dairy is bad. A while back ago, one of the Paleo websites was talking about eating potatoes. I never heard of any of this before coming here, now I have heard the term Paleo three times out and about. One from a doctor who was eating Paleo. He was not my doctor...
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The McDougall Program is not a "diet," and it was not designed primarily for weight loss – however, loss of excess body fat naturally results as people regain their health. - Dr. John McDougall
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Re: Dr. McDougall on the Livin' La Vida Low Carb Show!!!!

Postby plants-and-carbs » Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:44 am

Great interview.Dr McD went in ready to drop his points very clearly and concisely.

This interview was far better than the last time Moore interviewed Ornish. Ornish was just being nice and didn't want to debate, at all, so he was very mellow. This interview was much more compelling in that Dr McD really wanted to make it clear that low carb diets are a mess and the science is very weak and pathetic.

That was a historic interview for people in the future wanting to see a low fat/plant based expert debate a low carb guru. I really wish it had been another 30-60 minutes longer though.
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Re: Dr. McDougall on the Livin' La Vida Low Carb Show!!!!

Postby JohnLarson » Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:45 am

Mark Shields wrote:One thing I'd like people to focus on, is less demonizing real foods and let's focus on what has really changed in our diets and around the world, and it isn't animal products. We need to stop blaming real foods, or even macros, rather focus on the processed foods...


Welcome here Mark.

I think if we can just go back to eating closer like we did 100 years ago would be a good start. Meat of today is processed food. The meat of today is nothing like the meat my great grandparents ate.

Seems to me that animals are just storage devices for food. They eat the food and when food is not available, we eat animals. I still enjoy the taste of meat as well as cake and Doritos. The people that produce those products have made them very tasty.

I believe that the Paleo movement is missing out on the difference between starches and refined foods. I think the Starch Solution and the occasional eating of feasts foods is much more closer to how early mankind ate.
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The McDougall Program is not a "diet," and it was not designed primarily for weight loss – however, loss of excess body fat naturally results as people regain their health. - Dr. John McDougall
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Re: Dr. McDougall on the Livin' La Vida Low Carb Show!!!!

Postby plants-and-carbs » Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:02 pm

Oh, and I did not really care for Moore insisting he is healthy now...lol..where is the proof of that? Just because he is thinner does not mean he is healthy.
Last edited by plants-and-carbs on Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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