Groundhog~Dr.McDougall frowns on flour and baked stuff....??

[Marey]

Isn't it sad that in our society, it's more acceptable to see a doctor than to see a psychologist? I have seen many posts where someone says: "Maybe you should see a doctor?" But now someone says "Maybe you should see a psychologist?" and this person is being rude? Go figure!

Vegsource would also not allow anyone to mention the name Robert Cohen, or even his site, notmilk.com. I heard of his site before I knew Dr. McDougall, and the information helped me to stop consuming dairy products. And this was after 20 years of eating dairy products without any intention to stop! I like the non-censorship policy on this board.

[groundhogg]

I agree open discussion is the ideal situation.

I think if someone honestly wondered whether another person was in need of psychiatric help, they would say that to the person privately, with respect and sincere concern.

We've all seen this said in certain applications in which the person merely tries to divert the true nature of the discussion with an ad hominem type of response, in which the reply is subtle, yet meant to be somewhat humiliating at the same time as diverting attention away from the true discussion, and onto attacking the individual.

This is commonly seen in discussion. I think we all know the difference between this approach and real concern for a friend.

I remember explaining to our young daughter as she grew up to avoid the temptation to get into such things, take sides, etc., but rather, think for herself and treat each individually the way she would like to be treated by them in whichever situation they found themselves. Middle school offered prime opportunity for teaching these lessons about how to behave together as adults.

[Donna R]

Ground, I'm SO sorry you had such terrible stomach problems this month, and the added concern for your mother. I'm glad you're better.

did you take your probiotics every day, you've written they helped. and it may be possible you had a case of food poisoning from having to eat out.

today I'm reading the posts in the gluten-free forum as I've been so sleepy and headachy for a while. part of it is sinus and some mild pain there but I'm not clogged up since using salt-water rinse and taking vegan vit. D. I don't want to go on like this! I'm glad we have a carbon monoxide detector as I didn't even think of that being a factor and it could be in some cases.

Autum, vlturner, and everyone, thanks for posting there. I'm getting off gluten to see if it helps and I'll post there, too.

[susie]

Groundhog it is those cross contamination issues again. Even using a wooden spoon that has stirred a cake, washed and then used to stir GF foods will cause weeks of pain. I can tell instantly, well within 10 minutes, if I have been mildly CC'ed. Now in a busy restaurant they are not going to wipe benches of every last crumb before making potatoes or salads.

I went to a buffet and thought the pumpkin soup would be ok, but it was made from a mix that had gluten in it. My burps attracted the attention of a 5 year old boy that told me (admiringly) that I made big man burps, much to the horror of his mum.

It sound like you had intestinal damage and maybe bleeding too. Take care and don't eat out unless you are desperate. I want to make up a outing survival pack that is small enough to fit into my handbag, but large enough to stave off hunger until I get home again..........Any suggestions?

[serenity]

Thank you to those who attempted to contribute to the topic of this post.
I am the person who started this thread. I asked groundhogg to cite references for a statement s/he made about Dr. McDougall. Many posts and "thousands" of words later, the request is unanswered.
Instead this has turned into yet another thread about groundhogg.

Sojourner,
I find it interesting that you are so new to the board and yet have become so interested in setting things right. Your posts have been right on target with a couple of items of interest of another long-time poster.

Yet, you haven't really introduced yourself. Can you tell us about yourself? What brought you here; are you a vegetarian; how is your McDougalling going, etc?

[groundhogg]

Susie, yes, I think you are right. Eating in a restaurant is always risky.

My family began having outings for celebrations at this specific buffet because I recommended it, back a few years ago. They have a huge salad bar, potato bar, and fresh fruit, so I've always picked foods from those areas. Normally I watch for scatterings of croutons, etc., avoid all dressings and sauces, first because of unknown possibly un-vegan ingredients, but later, on top of that, knowing the dangers of hidden gluten.

I saw in a different message by you that you'd said that glutenings were worse with you now than they used to be... is that right? Because it seems that way with me now too... so... I was just wondering how long you've been gluten free now?

The reason I ask, is that, well, in another week I will have been gluten free for 2 whole years. These days the smallest amounts seem to be worse than ever, but I'm wondering if this will soon subside somewhat (not that I have any interest in every eating gluten on purpose, but just for the sake of getting through the real world as necessary)... the reason I'm wondering is becasue back when I was new at gluten free I'd corresponded a little with Ron Hoggan, a Canadian guy who has had celiac for a long time and has spent every spare minute researching all about gluten issues from various journals around the world, attempting to put information together that would otherwise be scattered around... and has authored many essays, at least one book I know of, and two or three articles in a journal...I forget which right now but I think Hypothetical Medicine or some similar title. Anyhow, via e-mail, he related to me that as time has passed he is only mildy ill now when he accidentally gets some gluten somewhere... I didn't think at the time to ask him how long that took, because I assumed (stupidly, on hindsight) that stuff like this wouldn't be such a big deal by two years into gluten free, but I'm finding it's actually worse at this point.

So... I'm hopeful that with more time (don't know hwo much, I wish I would've thought to ask Dr. Hoggan--by the way phd, not md), this will slack off ... so... also wondering... how long have you been gluten free????

And to everybody else...HELLO -- let's all be nice to each other and wish everybody a very nice day!!! We can do that!

I was thinking... the great thing about message boards is meeting people so far away from you that you'd never get to know otherwise, getting a chance to talk about stuff with a bigger variety of world experience than you're able to find in your own little neck of the woods...

and the bad thing about message boards... is that, as opposed to person-to-person conversation, in which voice inflection, chuckles here and there, instantaneous correction if something is misconstrued- rather than multiple messages that detract from the original topic just in effort to clarify something that went wayward way back, eye contact, and just seeing one another as fellow human beings with our body language and all of our innate communication skills... all of that missing on message boards... ugh... it can get confused.

I wish we could all sit down togetehr in person... I'm sure we would all have a good time, and I'm sure we would still disagree on many things (GOOD NEWS... we are unique individuals!)... but I know for a fact we would part ways with a smile, embrace, and good feelings for one another as friends. Now, ain't that right? I wish I could speak with everybody here, person-to-person... I'm sure we couldn't help but love each other dearly as great friends.

[Autumn]

Message boards do have big flaws in regards to communication since body language explains much more than words at times. But if I didnt have message boards I would never speak to another vegan. I live in hunting country and I have never met another vegetarian besides my dr's and most of them eat fish too.

[susie]

Ground hog for years I had followed a raw diet that did not include any overt gluten apart from things like wheat grass and burgall on the odd occasion, very odd ocasion. However I was having trouble with malasorption of nutrients such as iron and B12 that I blamed on the raw diet.

It was when I changed to the McDougall plan that my gluten problems went into overdrive, burping, constipation etc. So I gave up eating breads, but I still had problems. I didn't know about cross contamination then. It wasn't until I started reading celiac boards that I found the real cause for my problems. There is added wheat in so many foods, not to mention living with a sister that gets crumbs scattered everywhere.

Once I got serious, I realized I had been living with a low grade pain in my gut that I thought was normal. Now I I eat any gluten I can tell immediately just by that pain. I also now get diarrhea instead of constipation, so who knows. I remember having been constipated as a small child and my mother sitting me over some hot water in a chamber pot to help break the cycle. I am also asthmatic to boot.

So to answer your question I have only been gluten free for about 6 months or there abouts. I stopped reading celiac boards because I was getting to obbsessed about the whole thing. I do know that now if I eat anything with gluten in it I suffer. I think my digestion has improved somewhat now and I am due to have more blood tests dome, so we will see how that works out.

[groundhogg]

Well... I'm about fed up with the whole gluten problem... of course, what can I do about it?

It seems to be shoved under the rug by everybody except for others with the problem... and I, too, have been SO GRATEFUL for people on celiac boards sharing stories and figuring stuff out by trial and error and comparing what happens to whom, etc. I can't say how much that helped to just keep me from totally going nuts. Howver, like you... it bothers me to read that all the time... and in the mainstream world of doctors and nutritionists, celiac is kind of sloughed off as not so important to pay attention to because it affects so few people, etc., etc. etc.... they all need counseling, tranquilizers, etc., because they become obsessed with these problems, blah, blah, blah.

On the one hand, it is true, it seems most people with gluten problems do become obsessed with them, because it does have a tendancy to control your life...

Yet... I think the idea of feeling shoved aside as a small minority just makes it all worse, because of the frustration of dealing with it alone.

Just drives me nuts. I'm glad I've occasionally gone back and skimmed the celiac message boards... because with me... at around 7 months everything was groovy...symptoms gone and feeling great... then... BAM!...symptoms back a few months later (though very mild, still, disconcerting when I thought I was WELL) and fortunately... because of message boards... I knew to suspect soy, took it out, and symptoms were gone again in a couple of weeks. Things were up and down from there... kinda bumpy, but mostly good... but I had trouble sticking with my diet because wheat, oats, and soy had been the major filling parts of my meals. Rice gets gross to me without soy sauce, although recently I've been able to deal with rice minus soy sauce better. Then here recently whenever I've gotten some gluten (I got a little sloppier about cross-contamination when I felt better more often and got confidence in myself-- plus, started trying other foods I haven't eaten for years because of problems getting filled up with what was left of what I normally eat)... it seemed so many safe foods became terrorists inside my guts... so now I'm at this point where I'm kinda confused, and there are many favorited foods I'm scared to eat anymore. When I'm f;eeling good, I don't wanna chance rocking the boat and starting up something again.

So... well, I guess this is how the celiacs get obsessed, hey? I'm just remembering what Ron Hoggan said... that with time he got better and could even get glutened without suffering much... I'm waiting and hoping for THAT day... one of these days!!!! I think the trouble with the celiac boards is that when that day comes, people tend to drop off of those boards... when you're well... you don't go around obsessing and talking about it... so it remains an unknown for those of us still obsessing, etc. ugh.

[dagnabit]

Perhaps, on the question of McD's view on flour and baked stuff (like bread), his latest newsletter (January 2008) can put this question to rest. Maybe our lively thread here prompted him to clarify his position:

. . . flour has a much larger surface area to volume ratio than did the whole grain, making digestion and absorption much more rapid. For you this physical change may translate into easier weight gain, and higher blood levels of glucose, triglycerides, and cholesterol. The amount of insulin released by the pancreas into the blood is also increased as grains are processed from whole grains to cracked grains to coarse flour to fine flour. More insulin can mean more weight gain, and maybe, more risk of diabetes and heart disease. However, compared to animal-foods, free-oils, and plant-parts processed beyond recognition, whole wheat bread is definitely health food.

Whether or not this is a frown ( ) I cannot say. But it is, at least, a bit of a warning about overindulgence.

[KristaO]

Whether or not this is a frown ( ) I cannot say. But it is, at least, a bit of a warning about overindulgence.

Well, I'd say the (frown?) is actually a ( ) since the title of Dr. McDougall's article is: "For the Love of Grains." And did you see all those wonderful recipes from Mary? We're all blessed to know the McDougalls.

[groundhogg]

I guess that makes it either a , a , or just , depending on one's individual situation --

Oh... Merry Ol' Groundhog's Day, everybody!

May the shadows of winter's sky bring peace, excellent health, and happiness to all my friends here...and, whatever ya think of groundhogg, however much you may feel you like or dislike her (ol' phil was booed quite a bit this morning...ugh...we groundhogs can stand it... still...gotta stick with what our eyes tell us), I still see everyone here, or whoever else in the world I've ever had the pleasure of conversation and debate with, as wonderful people and treasured friends. Even if ya participated in the PM campaign against groundhog... I might not like how it feels... but I never hold grudges!

And yes, it seems Dr. McD. is either psychic, or he pokes in on the board discussions now and then!

Have a happy day... and, let's hope... a SHORT winter, regardless of what Uncle Phil predicted today!!!!

[susie]

Hmm I don't know much about the shadows of winters sky. but no one has seem much of Sojourner since he/she was challenged about why after just 10 posts was she attacking a long term poster on these boards?

Groundhog may I wish you a happy Groundhog day and may there be many more to come. Seeing that we Down Under have the monopoly on the sun at the moment means that when you get warm we lose out and get colder, so if you don't mind we will hang onto the warmth for a little bit longer.

[susie]

thought I would post this excerpt from the latest McDougall Newsletter that really clarifies the situation. It seems that both camps are right when it comes to what Dr McDougall thinks about flour.



I am often asked if there is any harm in using a home-bread-machine to make bread—after all, nothing is added or removed in the processing. For most people whole grain breads are an excellent choice, but it is not the same as eating whole grains. Beating the whole grain more than 1000 times with the whirling steel blade of the bread machine converts the kernel into a powder, known as flour. The intact cell wall of the kernel has been destroyed and now the digestive enzymes (amylase) easily digest the inner nutrients. In addition, the flour has a much larger surface area to volume ratio than did the whole grain, making digestion and absorption much more rapid. For you this physical change may translate into easier weight gain, and higher blood levels of glucose, triglycerides, and cholesterol. The amount of insulin released by the pancreas into the blood is also increased as grains are processed from whole grains to cracked grains to coarse flour to fine flour.23 More insulin can mean more weight gain, and maybe, more risk of diabetes and heart disease. However, compared to animal-foods, free-oils, and plant-parts processed beyond recognition, whole wheat bread is definitely health food.



For me, the whole flour thing is a no brainer as I would rather eat the whole grain and I don't eat gluten because I have an intolerance to that component of the grain. I do eat brown rice and enjoy it, so this newsletter was good for me to read. Nice to know that we differ from the other great apes in that we do have an added capacity for digesting grains that they don't have. Raw fooders please take notice. lol.

[thorn324]

It's Dr. Novick ...

DianeR: Jeff Novick's highest studies earned him a M.Sci. degree (2000) from Indiana State University (Terre Haute). He does not have a Ph.D.; nor is he a medical doctor. Therefore, it is incorrect for someone else to refer to him as "Dr." Novick. Indeed, at no time & in no place has he himself ever claimed to hold a doctorate or to have been trained as a medical doctor. (Just for the record, I have learned much from his contributions to the McDougall Forum as well as from videos on Dr. McDougall's channel. In other words, I write this simply to clear up the confusion about Mr. Novick's title—certainly _not_ as any criticism of him.)