Flat tummies possible on McDougall?

[Mrs. Doodlepunk]

There are high-protein meat eaters on the fitness board I frequent who were overweight and now are buff with flat tummies (many have had several children). So if the only way I can have a flat tummy is by eating animal foods, then I will never have a flat tummy. But I'd like to know if high-carb McDougalling vegans can acquire that, esp post-menopausal McDougalling women.

Somewhere, maybe it's on the main McDougall site in an article, is a picture of Carl Lewis at the starting thingee for a race. He was (and maybe still is) a McDougaller and looks absolutely fabulous. He's not a post menopausal woman, but his story is interesting. He couldn't maintain his weight and kept gaining, even while working at the intensity he needed to keep in shape for racing, while eating high protein, so he switched to McDougall. I'm going to go look for that picture!

Here it is: http://www.nealhendrickson.com/mcdougall/030900.htm

I think you are on the right track. Upping the raw veggies and limiting the starches a bit should do the trick. It has worked for me and nothing else did, and I am definitely post menopausal since I my ovaries are gone and I take no estrogen. I really feel like it's the fat that is melting, too.

[rcbinmichigan]

Do you find it difficult to turn to more raw veggies than say a potato or bowl of cereal? Groan--I can't imagine what I will eat for breakfast if not cereal or hash browns--beans? Raw veggies are ok, but not that satisfying in the long run.

What do you think of air-popped corn--should it be measured and limited, like potatoes? And Grape Nuts? (considering what I'm trying to do here, anyway)....

Thanks so much for your input!

[Mrs. Doodlepunk]

I think that you have to be careful and not sabottage (did I spell that right?) your efforts here. You have to eat enough starches to be satisfied. For breakfast you can eat starches and fruit, I think maybe oats? I have read that some are eating fruit for breakfast and that might be too much fruit and not enough satisfying starch.

I have eaten refried beans with salsa for breakfast, that is good. Another thing I like is hash browns, and when I eat potatoes for breakfast I lose weight faster. (reminder to self - eat potatoes tomorrow morning! ) Also, there is nothing wrong with having leftovers for breakfast. If you can stand eating a bowl of soup for breakfast that is fine. Definitely don't try to chew up a salad for breakfast, unless you are having your starch along with it.

It sounds to me like you eat during the day as you get hungry, and what I think you should try is FIRST eat a few carrots or a salad, or other raw vegetable, and then if you still need something, have some of your starch of choice. I think Grape Nuts are a more refined food, so probably would not have those myself. I think I would probably eat potatoes, but you could do brown rice or another whole cooked grain. Kamut is a really delicious grain, to me it tastes buttery. We don't have it often because it takes so long to cook. It can be cooked ahead of time and reheated, and keeps well in the refrigerator.

Find a raw veggie you like, or two or three, and keep a bowl of them by you. When you want popcorn, have it, but eat some raw veggies first! You will probably eat less popcorn since you filled up on the low calorie veggies first. You will still get your popcorn fix but just not eat quite as much of it.

Remember that starches are good! Popcorn is a starch!

[hope101]

Rcb: I second the Doodlester --do not feel you are doing something wrong if you reach for the starches. Do not measure them. (However, you might want to reconsider eating popcorn in front of the TV anyway as it is proven we will eat more with any distraction.) Did you read that link I enclosed about changing set points? Dr. McDougall states that your plate should have 1/3 to at maximum 1/2 of your plate as green or yellow vegetables, but the remainder as a starch. What will happen is that you will be eating overall less energy density on your plate. The starches will contribute to satiety (fullness) and feeling satisfied, but in the end you will be eating just slightly fewer calories effortlessly. Starches are your friend.

A number of years ago I was doing a minimum of 40 minutes cardio per day, and hour three times a week of weights (not girly stuff either), AND weight watchers. I pushed and struggled and got my weight to 145.5 lbs and could go no lower despite rigorously measuring, using a pedometer, etc. Now, no measuring, eating basically MWL McDougall, just making sure I get in my leafy vegetables consistently I am 144 and still dropping. I am not overweight by BMI standards, but this time I am quite confident I will hit my high school weight without measuring anything.

Here are a few more links that might inspire you.

http://www.world-wire.com/news/0622050001.html
http://www.organicathlete.org/civicspace/node/10

[Mrs. Doodlepunk]

A number of years ago I was doing a minimum of 40 minutes cardio per day, and hour three times a week of weights (not girly stuff either), AND weight watchers. I pushed and struggled and got my weight to 145.5 lbs and could go no lower despite rigorously measuring, using a pedometer, etc.

I am reminded by this of something that might help here. I wonder, RCB, if you are stressing your body too much by the exercise you are doing? I read one time, either on the VS board or another one related to weight loss and exercise, that someone was going to a personal trainer who advised her to take TWO FULL WEEKS OFF with no exercise whatsoever. No kidding. It turned out that her body needed a break and when she started back in it was with a different program, more varied in intensity, and not as rigorous. She started losing weight again after that.

[DianeR]

I hit menopause a year ago and used it as inspiration to go from a 23.5 to an 18.0 BMI. And my tum tum is flat now and never used to be.

I found that straight McDougalling wasn't enough to lose the weight. (I'd been McDougalling for over 5 years.) I had to exercise (you have that covered obviously) and watch what I ate. Meaning: cutting down on alcohol, flour, simple sugars, tofu and fake meats; having more low calorie veggies and whole grains; and eating only when I was hungry (I had a tendency to take seconds or even thirds because others were and I wasn't stuffed yet ) Keeping a daily journal (weight, exercise, what was eaten) really helped. The weight came off slowly, but it did come off.

Of course, I don't think everyone is necessarily going to end up the same shape even if they have the same BMI. I have a number of exercise tapes and I notice that the shapes of these hyper-buff types DO vary.

Also, examine your posture. A lot of people are rounder (or at least even rounder ) because they aren't standing up straight. I've read a number of books by Egoscue about proper positioning. And now I see that many, many people, young and old, are hunched over. Now, when I look in the mirror and see a poochie tummy, I inevitably find it is because I'm slumping.

[Mrs. Doodlepunk]

I've read a number of books by Egoscue about proper positioning. And now I see that many, many people, young and old, are hunched over. Now, when I look in the mirror and see a poochie tummy, I inevitably find it is because I'm slumping.

I got my first Egoscue book today!

You are so right about the posture. I was talking with an elderly relative who has a quite bad "widow's hump" and terrible back aches. She's supposed to be taking Fosamax but refuses because she's afraid of bone cancer (at age 91 no less....) which I think is wise of her. But I digress! Anyway, she is able to stand right up straight with no increase in pain. She can stand for a few seconds like that, and says it feels good, but can't hold it and returns to her normal hunched over posture. I am now of the belief that her hump is due to unused muscles that are now useless to hold her up straight.

A few months ago, I did a consultation with Dr. Susan Brown for my bone health. (Long story.) She told me something very interesting - something like 40 percent of women with widow's humps DON'T have spinal fractures, they just have poor posture! She told me to stand up straight and pretend like I'm showing off my pretty new necklace.

I'm going to go read my Egoscue book now.

[erin]

it sounds like you are going to make some positive changes but i think you definitely hit on one important factor when you wrote that you don't get enough sleep. adequate rest is so important. if you are exercising vigorously and sleeping less than 7 hours a night it could definitely keep you from reducing your abdominal fat. here's a link to an article about sleep and belly fat.

http://www.truestarhealth.com/members/c ... P1A12.html

~erin

[VeganMan]

I don't know about you women, but RCB...I'm going to be your poster boy for your 20-35 year old men's group!!

The reason I want a six pack is to prove that it can be done...I know that sounds a little childish. I just get sick of hearing about how being a Vegan cannot support such an active lifestyle...I'm out to prove those people wrong. I've got a ways to go, but the abs will be popping thru soon enough.

[VeganMan]

I've been to that website, but I'm a bigger fan of VeganFitness.net.

There is quite a variety of vegans there who are very active, such as marathoners, body builders, bikers, etc. It's a nice forum for me since I really like being active. Check it out.

[Clary]

Are flat tummies possible on the McDougal diet?

You might enjoy reading about Ruth Heidrich, now past 70, and whom Peta designated as "The Sexiest Vegetarian Alive". (She's actually a Vegan.)

She has a link on the main McDougall website as a Star McDougaller:
http://www.drmcdougall.com/stars/star07 ... drich.html

She has written books. (Check out www.half.com).

She has her own website:

http://www.ruthheidrich.com/

She is an amazing woman. She was interviewed by VegSource:

http://www.vegsource.com/heidrich/interview.htm

She has a website hosted by VegSource:

http://vegsource.com/heidrich/

She credited Dr. McDougall for her path to great health, and said he was the only Dr. that gave her hope when she was diagnosed with Breast Cancer.

Dr. Heidrich is at least a six-time Ironman Triathlon finisher, holder of more than 900 gold medals from every distance from 100 meter dashes to 5K road races to ultramarathons and triathlons. She has completed more than 60 marathons all over the world, including Boston, New York, Moscow, and has held 3 world fitness records in her age group at the famed Cooper Clinic in Dallas, Texas. She also was named one of the "Top Ten Fittest Women in North America" in 1999.

--and she has a flat tummy!

If you find her interesting, there are "days" of reading available about her and her amazing story.

[Sunny]

Hey VeganMan and all the rest ... it can be done, check this out :
http://www.andreascahling.com/andreas-about
Andreas Cahling is a longtime vegetarian and bodybuilder, check out his
six pack

I know since McDougalling and exercising more my stomach is flatter than it has been in a long time, I no longer have that bloated feeling that came with the SAD way of eating.

[alyza]

Thanks, everyone, for your thoughtful responses.

Hope101: according to Dr. McDougall, one doesn't need to be concerned with how many starches one eats, that they help one to not feel unsatisfied. He's written about peoples who primarily live on potatoes, so I've assumed he's correct in those statements and that fitness buffs who think potatoes prevent weight loss were misinformed. So I wonder--is Dr M correct or incorrect in saying eat as much as you need to be satisfied, or do I need to measure and weigh and not get over a certain limited amount?

Dr. McDougall notes, in his MWL book, that some people will easily carry an extra 20 lbs... those people are women. You see, we are built for bearing children, so can easily carry that. For us, MWL will help get rid of the last 20 lbs. Make your plates 1/2 starchie foods and 1/2 non-starchy veg.

Do you do abdominal exercises to work on your muscles there? It will not remove excess weight, but will help tone. Also, how much of your exercise is of the cardio calorie burning kind? Working your muscles is good and important, but one has to move too

Are potatoes fattening for some people (meaning Dr M is incorrect when he states they're a wonderful food)? I question because I hear so much in fitness circles--from people with flat tummies--to eliminate them to get that lean look. Perhaps I just need to try it and see if there's any change for me?

Potatoes are not fattening for some people. However, some potatoes digest quicker than others. If you are concerned, stick with red potatoes and other waxy varieties and stay away from the russetts. But, I wouldn't pay too much attention to those people in the fitness circles about potaotes... just look around the world at the thinnest people.

BTW, my stomach is not flat yet, but it is definitely better. I still have a long way to go, but I have come far. At my thinnest, my stomach was never completely flat... partially genetic and partially because of a surgery I had when I was 4 where I don't think they stitched the muscles back properly

[rcbinmichigan]

Wow, I didn't check this over the long weekend--a lot of responses!

I've spoken with my Lead dietitian and our Stress Mgt Specialist--very exciting--they're both going to work with me to really tweak my lifestyle. The Stress Mgt Specialist is a Life Coach who's worked with executives for years, helping them take their lives to the next highest level for them.

I used our bodyfat machine this am after drinking LOTS of water, and my bodyfat is 26.4%, and that's in the middle of the average range. I talked to my Lead dietitian about wanting to get into the "Good" range of 18-21%, which she thinks is doable given my comitment to a clean diet and high activity level. She said it could be one food the body's having trouble with that keeps the bodyfat level higher.

She also said that hormonally eating in the evening is not good because insulin stores more fat then. So if I want to snack on popcorn, I need to do it earlier than I have been. That it's common for people to snack on crunchy favorite foods while reading in bed, and that can stymy weight loss.

We do a metabolic test here, that measures what (carbs or fat) the body is burning when at rest (pre-breakfast fast), and that helps guide her in personalizing an individualized nutrition plan. I've spoken with one of my staff about getting this done.

The Lead dietitian agrees (she's well aware of Dr McDougall) with eating more non-starchy carbs and lessening the starchy carbs, and she's going to work with me so that I'm always satisfied. She's aware Dr M's MWL is no seeds and nuts, and will work with that.

She doesn't think I'm gluten intolerant since I don't have classic signs, but my body could still be "struggling" more with it since it's a food I eat a lot, for decades. She said sometimes if there's a food one eats a lot, the body can start to have some intolerance for it. She's been studying some cleansing diet she wants to try, and will get me the information when we sit down to talk.

So I'm going to do a 3-day food record and give to her, so we can sit down and really tweak my diet to see if my body will get to the 18-21% bodyfat level.

I'm going to have to work with the Stress Mgt specialist to improve my sleep quality, and she does various techniques to release emotional blocks to whatever one's goals are. Tools that work with the Power I have to shape my life the way I want it, not focus on what I have and don't want!

VeganMan--I'm with you, I want to know (prove) if a vegan can get a flat tummy. Once and for all, I want to be able to answer that question--and esp because I work with post-menopausal women with heavier fat deposits in the abdominal area than before mid-life, and I want to have first-hand experience of if and how this can be done.

Clary--I like Ruth H's story, but I can't find anything on her more recent than 2003. Some of these links are old stuff (late 90's)--have you seen anything new of her? Is she still around?

Alyza--in my original post I listed all the many forms of conditioning I do. So yes, I do much core work and cardio and have very strong abs and can see the top outlines, but from the belly button to top of thighs is thick. This is a post-menopausal thing, how my body is depositing fat--it's also how high stress hormones in the blood deposit and hold onto fat. I do prefer red and golden potatoes over baking/Idaho, and will stick to them for my potato source.

In the end, if really taking care of myself nutrionally and stress-reducing-ly doesn't get me a flat tummy--well, I tried, and I'm making healthy self-loving choices, and so be it. I can't fight genes or age, all I can do is make the best most self-nurturing choices for myself.

I'm going to start increasing my mileage, to see if my body can handle longer-distance running, to see if I can run the '08 Detroit marathon with my brother-in-law. But, if in the end, after educating myself and training smarter not harder, I find my body just can't handle 26+ miles--at least I tried.

I don't want to make excuses why I wouldn't try something--I need to at least try, self-respectfully.

[harmony_55805]

Do you know of any thyroid problems that run in your family? I have a lot in mine. My sister was on medication at age 30. All of my aunts and my grandma on my mom's side has it. That can really make it hard, if not impossible to lose weight even with intense exercise. No one in my family is as committed to diet and exercise as you are, but I saw a story on the Discovery Channel where a gal who competed in triathalons was trying to figure out why she couldn't lose weight and her trainer was stumped too. They later found out her thyroid was exceedingly low. It ran in her family. So, something to consider. Hopefully it is just a change in diet needed and nothing medical. Good luck figuring out this mystery.