August 2020 McDougall MWL Weigh-In Group

[Mark Cooper]

Growing a Pear - That makes complete sense to me. And you seem to have devised a very manageable solution already!

[Zoey]

Both times I was hungry mid afternoon and thought I'd be fine with the smallest handful possible as a means to tide me over until dinner. Once I tasted it, the calorie density roped me in.

Oh dear, mid-afternoon is my absolute danger zone. I've really had to alter my schedule to make sure I'm out of the house at that time. That's when I would begin the grazing until my husband got home for dinner. "Just a little bit, just to hold me over..." hahaha, never happened. Pleasure trap indeed. Good luck on conquering this one, you can do it!

[Zoey]

Thank you again Mark for all of your insight, recommendations, morale boosting, etc. I look forward to reading your responses to everyone, myself included, in the group every week.

Have a good week everyone!
Sarah

Agreed, Sarah! Mark's insightful boosts are so valuable, and he gives these to each and every one of us. If I paid money to a coach, I can't imagine him/her being any more helpful than Mark is to all of us. Thanks, Coach!

[Zoey]

The reassurance of steady progress and a reproducible, understandable set of principles allows me a great sense of relief. I feel like I'm spending less time on the mental energy of change, and that's a lovely place to be.

Just re-emphasizing this because it's... you know... perfect.

[Zoey]

As we head into the final stretch of this month, it seems like an appropriate time to take stock and assess where the most significant challenges to your adherence lie. If something specific immediately springs to mind, why not dedicate the next week to discovering how to overcome that obstacle?

Yes, why not? I can't believe we're in the homestretch already. My focus this week will be on eliminating the liquid calories while still adhering to the other points. You know, not playing whack-a-mole like I have a tendency to do (liquid calories down, fruit intake waaaay up!)
Thanks for this challenge, Mark, I'm on it!

[Expat in NZ]

Wow! Expat in NZ, Dead lift all those pounds! Wow! Bravo!

HA I just saw this! Thanks My husband is a lifter and got me started. 5 years ago I could only deadlift about 60lb. It takes a lot of work!

[oneesotericgirl]

I'm having a terrible time with not being satisfied without fat. Not satisfied as in full, but satisfied as in when I'm emotional eating. I'm working on the emotional eating but it won't change over night. I'm over eating and eating more and more carbs and grains in an effort to compensate. I was doing good with the MWL program, but some days are very difficult. I've been having bread or crackers with preserves. But I still crave my usual dip of ketchup and mayo for my oven baked fries, butter on my baked potato, melty peanut butter on my toast. I haven't given in to most of this. Tonight I made ketchup and vegan mayo dip and it was NOT satisfying so I tossed it after one bite. This, of course, frustrated me even more. I've been eating edamame too, which I know is not MWL, but it's satisfying.
I'm on day 7. Maybe trying the MWL first was too fast? I just finished reading "The McDougall Program - 12 days to Dynamic Health," and toward the end it talks about transition foods. Like having peanut butter and tofu based meats. I know these are way too high in fat for MWL.
I feel like I should be able to go straight into MWL but the craving for comforting foods is unbearable sometimes. I do suffer from depression and anxiety which I currently manage with therapy and medication, but I think that is why these desires for soothing foods are so strong. I don't know if I should cut myself a little slack when I have food that's not on MWL when I eat more grains, breads, and carbs. But I also have so much weight to lose that I worry it'll be detrimental to my progress. Sometimes my meal of potatoes with veggies feels so bland (I'm drastically reducing salt intake due to recent high BP) that I find myself not wanting to eat. So I end up waiting to eat until I'm hangry. I am mildly hypoglycemic, so when I get hangry, I get aggressive, my anxiety skyrockets, and I can't seem to make healthy choices at that point.
Just needed to vent. Maybe others are dealing with or have dealt with the same in the past that can offer advice.
Thanks for listening!

[rlechols]

oneesotericgirl,

I have been doing MWL since Jan 2020 but before that I did the Starch Solution for a whole year from Jan 2019 thru Dec 2019. I have to say, I would have had an incredibly hard time if I had tried to start with MWL. The reason is that when you are starting with the Standard American diet, just switching to WFPB or Starch Solution is a HUGE change. It's hard. It takes practice. Your body and taste buds need to adjust. Being able to swap white bread for whole wheat, white pasta for whole wheat, and eating tofu and tortillas and such is satisfying and keeps you going when eliminating meat and dairy is such a difficult thing at first. Even after eating only plants for a whole year, switching to MWL was still challenging. Giving up tofu, dried fruit, flour, etc felt like a hardship in some ways after giving up so much already. But it was doable and with the support here, I was able to make it happen and I've stuck with it for 8 months. Now it feels quite easy.

So basically, there is absolutely no harm in starting with the Starch Solution and getting that under your belt first. If you have a lot of weight to lose, it will probably come off either way. After you lose some you may get stuck and need to switch to MWL later. The most important thing is making changes sustainable. If you can stick with it better by doing the Starch solution to start, that is much better than throwing in the towel completely and going back to the lifestyle that caused your health or weight problems to begin with. So do what is best for you that you can handle right now. I promise it gets easier as you go.

[wildgoose]

@oneesotericgirl You have lots of options. You're juggling a cost-benefit analysis, which, because you’re human, includes a strong emotional component.

OK, here’s what you have. This list is a start — customize it as it fits you.
Benefits of MWL: More consistent weight loss, faster progress toward weight and health goals. Less chance of depression from not losing weight.
Costs of MWL: Giving up "comfort food." Putting up with uncomfortable cravings and moods while getting used to lower fat (for up to 3 months).

Benefits of doing Starch Solution/regular McDougall plan: Still being able to eat some of the kind of food you love. Making steady, if much slower, progress toward your goals. Might be able to transition to MWL later.
Costs of doing Starch Solution/regular McDougall plan: Frustration over slower weight loss. Inability to get out of the Pleasure Trap. Danger of "transition foods" leading to full-blown SAD eating, because you are such a strong, self-described "emotional eater."

You have choices. Make them clearly. Make this functional. You may not be able to take the emotions out of your eating, but try to take them out of your decision making.

It’s not all or nothing. Do the experiment. Set out the guidelines you decide on, and commit to doing them for a period of time. Say 60 days. Then do it. Really do it, so you'll have good data to evaluate at the end. At the end of the experiment, decide whether the benefits are worth the costs. If so, great! You have a plan that’s worth keeping. If not, what needs to change to tip the cost/benefit analysis to the benefit side? Figure that out, then test it for another 60 days. Nothing has to be forever, just a series of experiments until you find something that gives you maximum benefit for minimum cost. And you decide where the balance is between the two.

The other thing is, you can tackle issues in blocks. If you’re trying to eliminate added fats, maybe don’t do that AND try to reduce salt and sugar at the same time. Sprinkle salt on those potatoes — they’ll taste better — while you’re working through giving up the oily stuff.

This probably means that you won’t be dropping the weight as fast as you want to. But that’s OK. It took me YEARS to figure out what I needed to do. I wish I’d done it sooner, and faster, but I did it. You can too.

By the way, don’t do hangry. It’s really not good for you, as you know. If you have to think of food as medicine, to keep your blood sugar from crashing, so be it. You might want to work on other ways of self-soothing (I’m sure you’ve heard that one before!), when food becomes less of a comfort and more of a practicality of life.

Goose

[Mark Cooper]

oneesotericgirl - I think it is important to assess which program to pursue with regard to what you believe you are willing and / or able to do with respect to making behavioral changes. The pattern of behavior recommended for MWL is best described by the MWL 10-Point Checklist and the MWL guidelines; from my perspective the overall pattern of behavior is of paramount importance and the totality of the recommendations are important to consider in terms of providing adequate satiety while avoiding passive overconsumption.

A few things to consider - neither bread nor crackers are recommended for MWL and most preserves are unlikely to satisfy the MWL guidelines, as well. Vegan mayo would also not be recommended for MWL. Many of the foods you describe feeling cravings for are likely to be quite high in added salt (and potentially even sugar), along with fat and oil. Would homemade salsa or pico, an adherent ketchup (as described by wildgoose here), chili, or some other adherent sauce or dressing work to accompany the potatoes? Wildgoose has an excellent post discussing sauces / gravies / toppings here.

Just because you are struggling, doesn't mean you are "broken" or something is wrong with you! These are HARD changes to make and, especially in the beginning, they might not feel very good at all.

As Dr Lisle says, part of the problem is that when in the pleasure trap, doing the wrong thing feels so good and doing the right thing doesn't feel good." Even when one finds success, exposure to the Pleasure Trap can very easily put someone right back there.

We live in a very toxic food environment where there is very little social and environmental support for what we do. This is not always easy for everyone to deal successfully with.

If one compares the MWL 10-Point Checklist to the 10-Point Checklist for the McDougall Program, they are remarkably similar. The differences for which the McDougall Program allows are meals comprising up to 90% minimally processed starches, and the allowances for LIMITED amounts of calorie dense foods and LIMITED amounts of higher fat plant foods. (Additionally, it omits the recommendation to begin meals with soup and/or salad and/or fruit.) So one must ask themselves, based on an honest appraisal of past history, current status, and health and weight loss goals, am I likely to be able to include limited amounts of these foods without making things harder on myself, or am I more likely to overeat these foods? What has typically happened in the past?

I'm not saying one particular path is right or wrong, but rather it will be most productive to decide what is attainable for you at present, and work assiduously toward achieving the changes that are appropriate.

The lengthy thread on Compliance on a Healthy Diet provides a fuller picture of important ways one can set themselves up for success. Near the end of that thread, Jeff provides some valuable recommendations.

[Expat in NZ]

Weigh in - Aug 1 193.4
Aug 7 - 191.8lb (-1.6lb)
Aug 14 - 190.5lb (-1.3lb)
Aug 21 - 188.7lb (-1.8lb)
Aug 28 - 188.1lb (-0.6lb from last week)

Total loss for August - 5.3 lb


Happy NZ Friday everyone! I was hoping to go out with a bang this week, but a loss is a loss and I will take what I got with a smile I did come in with weeks of being stuck in a plateau so this is, by far, the preferable alternative! Overall I am very pleased with the progress and am looking forward to seeing what September brings!

To oneesotericgirl - I just want to send you a hug and tell you I feel you girl. I do not have anxiety etc but I do understand how foods can be a comfort. You were given some awesome advice already, and yes these are big changes we are making. My starting weight is similar to yours, and I completely understand that it seems like "so much weight" you have to lose and "so far to go" to get to your goal. It would be wonderful if we could just snap our fingers and get there but...consider some things. Firstly, we did not all get where we started (overweight, sick, feeling like crap etc) in a day, a month or even a year. That's a lifetime accumulation/aggregation. Therefore, it will not come off in the blink of an eye. It will take time and effort. Secondly, it helps to focus on the solution and not the problem. With a little planning ahead and patience with yourself, you will find success. Lastly - this journey is trying, it is difficult and yes, sometimes the food gets boring and sometimes the dinner you have made for yourself seems far less appealing than the dinner you've made for your kids/husband/partner/etc and YES sometimes all you want is that reward center in your brain to light up like Christmas after a stressful day and you know exactly how to make that happen and it seems so easy...but when you overcome these things incrementally and systematically, you realize one day that you feel amazing already and you don't need any "comfort food". You start to really look forward to a huge pile of vegetables and starch in front of you at dinner time. You start to realize it's no longer a daily battle with yourself.

I am speaking from a place of having an unhealthy relationship with food. I went on my first diet when I was 7 years old. My life was a yo-yo of bingeing and severely restricting. In fact, just before I started McDougall I would go to bed with my stomach growling so loudly that my husband begged me to please eat something. I was keeping my intake under 1100cal a day and I still weighed over 200lb. Now I eat until I am full, whenever I am hungry. I have been known to eat a bowl of oatmeal at 9:30 at night. The first time I did this I resigned to the fact that the scale would show a bigger number in the morning - but it didn't. Amazing.


The last thing I want to say is something my doc told me just before he recommended McDougall to me. I was sitting in his office in tears and asking for diet pills because "I had tried everything". I had kept a food diary and he looked over it, looked at me with a concerned expression and said "You don't trust your body at all do you?" That stopped me dead in my tracks. He sent me away with some reading assignments and research. I started McDougall 2 days later. I am learning to trust my body and to give it what I know it needs without the control/punishment monster rearing its head. We all struggle. None of us (as far as I have seen) have found this the easiest and most painless transition ever. Nothing worth having is ever easy. Dig in your heels and decide your best plan of action and stick with it. I KNOW you can do it. I'll be rooting for you.

[LesleyMills]

8th week weigh in, was 172lbs now 172lbs no change
1. start meal with soup/salad/fruit 100%
2. 50/50 plate non-starch veggies vs minimal processed starch. 50% as I think I went overboard again, snacking on cold baked potatoes.
3. Eliminate added sugar and salt. 60% I made a soup but did sprinkle salt on a couple of bowls as I was craving taste. I also ate a chocolate bar last weekend.
4. Eliminate animal foods. 100%
5. Eliminate high fat food. 100%
6. Eliminate added oil. 100%
7. Eliminate higher calorie dense foods inc flour. 80% as I bought a bread roll and a danish pastry.
8. Don't drink calories. 100% really hard to stick to this week as I was craving a glass of wine.
9. Follow principles: eat when hungry, don't starve/stuff yourself. 100%
10. Avoid sedentary lifestyle, at least 30 mins moderate exercise. 100%
I had a bit of a bad weekend. I am an emotional eater and I've had a few issues of late on the family/personal front and as I'm seriously craving taste and left my weekly shop until the weekend, I ended up buying a few things off plan and so didn't stick to the plan part of Saturday and Sunday. I didn't go crazy and got right back on the program on Monday but it was enough of a slip that I undid the good work I did and I didn't lose any weight. I've decided to try a few more recipes in the books around sauces/gravy but without the flour so that I can give my steamed veggies a bit more flavour and I'm hoping that helps with the cravings. It's a work in progress I guess.

[connielovesdogs]

To oneesotericgirl:
I want to share a little about my experience in the hopes it might be helpful. When I first tried McDougall program I was already convinced of the science, but I hated the food. I committed myself to 10 days, but I was miserable. I felt sorry for myself and deprived and thought, "after these 10 days I'm quitting and will just be fat forever.". It helped tremendously to hear Doug Lisle's lecture on the Pleasure Trap. It helped me understand that it's not my fault that my body wants the high fat salt sugar foods, and also that my taste buds really will adjust. After about 3 days of strict adherence things started feeling a tiny bit better. Then better. Then even better. I have never reached Jeff Novick Nirvana of being in love with a totally plain baked potato, but I've gotten close (the sprinkle of salt still happens and that is okay!!).

Once I got some success on the scale (I maybe lost 6 pounds in 10 days with strict adherence to McDougall...not MWL) that was also a motivator. I eventually lost about 80 pounds. I would get off track from time to time, add some weight, and start again. Each time I went off the rails (eating out vegan food...there is a lot of high fat vegan food out there that is delicious but not healthy for weight maintain) I would feel angry and deprived for the first 3 to 7 days of returning to a healthy WFPB McDougall plan. And then my taste buds adjust and it's okay again. I don't want to continue doing this over and over for the rest of my life, of course, but that pleasure trap is real. If I can reduce those off course times to a meal or a day as opposed to months or years, I'll be winning.

Hang in there and know that even though you can't believe it now, you really will enjoy the food as much as the SAD food after some time. And it's true what people say, don't get hangry. Eat eat eat!!!

[PonysPlants]

Lost 0.4lbs this week. Pretty disappointed by that really, though I can see where I’ve made a couple mistakes I did manage to finally cut my fruit intake to only 2 a day (it only took 8 weeks!) and I’ve upped my exercise massively. I’ve been doing at least 17,000 steps a day with Pilates on top. I guess I was just expecting to be rewarded a bit more.

1. Start each meal with a soup and/or salad and/or fruit. YES
2. Follow the 50/50 plate method for your meals, filling half your plate (by visual volume) with non-starchy vegetables and 50% (by visual volume) with minimally processed starches. YES. This is just how I eat now. So easy and I love it.
3. Greatly reduce or eliminate added sugars and added salts. This includes gourmet sugars and salts, too. If either is troublesome for you, you can eliminate them. Yes
4. Eliminate all animal foods (dairy, meat, eggs, fish, seafood). Easy. Vegan for life
5. Eliminate all higher fat plant foods (i.e., nuts, seeds, avocados, tofu, soy). Had half an avocado in a salad.
6. Eliminate any added oil. Had half a tablespoon in a dinner my husband made.
7. Eliminate all higher calorie-dense foods including flour products (i.e., bread, bagels, muffins, crackers, dry cereals, cookies, cakes), puffed cereals, air-popped popcorn and dried fruit. Had some crisps and a small amount of chocolate again. And some bread. I can see now that this is a slippery slope as I did the same last week.
8. Don't drink your calories (especially from juices & sugar-sweetened beverages). Still having a little oat milk in my tea.
9. Follow these principles, eating whenever you are hungry until you are comfortably full. Don't starve yourself and don't stuff yourself. Yes.
10. Avoid being sedentary and aim for at least 30 minutes or more of moderate exercise daily. Yes, really went for it this week.


Well, funnily enough now I can see why I only lost half as much as normal. Doing this check list is so helpful, even when you think you’ve had a good week you can look back and reveal the reasons why it actually wasn’t. Back to the basics and to remember “it’s the food”! Exercise is to make me feel good and has little relation to my weight loss.

Thanks as always to the moderators! You’re so appreciated.

[Waterfit]

Starting wt. 121.5
Last week: 112.4
This week: 113.7
Gain: 1.3

I was very surprised with a gain because I was 110.4 on Tuesday. (the lowest yet) I think it's mainly water weight since I have been running a lot more and also compliant (except for enough veggies). I am moving forward though because I love eating this way! It's so easy and tasty.