Flat tummies possible on McDougall?

[chrisv]

rcb, check out this article,
http://www.sixwise.com/newsletters/06/12/20/the_two_types_of_fat_--_visceral_and_subcutaneous_--_and_which_poses_the_greatest_risk_to_you.htm

According to this if you have the TOFI body type a rigourus execise routine is importain to your health. It does sound like you get the amount of exercise they recomend. I think I will post this in the exercise topic to get some help on what is 'equivalent to 17 miles of jogging each week'

chirsv

[rcbinmichigan]

I have made the following changes and am seeing results:

I alternate starches so I don't eat potatoes every day, and I don't eat white potatoes anymore (red and golden only).

I eat a lot more beans, for satiety.

I eat one or two good-sized salads most days--it's not my favorite thing, I mix it in with cooked food.

I don't eat after 7pm--that's really hard, I'm usually so hungry by the time I go to bed and moreso when I wake up to exercise hard. I still have a banana and large mug of coffee before my work out, that bridges the gap between the previous evening's hunger and the tough work outs.

I experience hunger--despite what Dr McDougall says, I go around a lot hungrier and I'm losing bodyfat.

I still eat some nuts, seeds, and dried fruit as snacks with my evening coffee, and it's not detracting from the fat loss.

I'm working on the stress management and getting more sleep, but that's been challenged with the increasing anxiety-driven destructiveness of our beloved aging dog. The water damage she's caused has left us with much work/repair and clean-up to deal with, and the house is a cluttered mess as we work on the affected areas, and we can't find a better home for her (nobody wants a 12-year old dog with a history of increasing destructive behavior), so the emotional dis/stress of dealing with that has had an impact on the both of us (we don't want to euthanize a beloved pet who's such a good companion--so we dope her up and put her in her cage whenever we leave the house). It's very distressing to live in such a cluttered house, too.

When I tested my bodyfat 6 weeks after the initial assessment in January,
I had gained 1 1/2 lbs of lean tissue and lost 1 1/2 lbs total weight, and my BF % dropped from 26.4% to 24.1%. That's still the average category--healthy, yes, and I can live with it--but not as "fit" or "athletic" as a lot of highly active, athletic women my age (who've even had babies, and I haven't!).

A few years ago, having been on MWL for about 3 years and the fat just so slowly being released from my body, I switched from the standard way of lifting weights--heavier for less reps--to less weight/more reps, and saw a desirable response in my physique. I easily put on muscle, so when I lift heavy I quickly see the gains, and now that my body is holding onto fat so stubbornly, I just didn't like that big/chunky/stocky look. Lifting for endurance helps lean me out.

Any other ideas are always welcome.

[Mrs. Doodlepunk]

It sounds like you are doing great! In spite of using the dried fruits and nuts and seeds to be losing weight is really good.

[hope101]

Hey, rcbinmichigan. Do you know I was thinking about you just yesterday and wondering how you are doing? I actually think you are doing quite well to have lost 2% body fat in two months, especially since you aren't hugely overweight.

If you want to tweak it more, I would still consider giving up the nuts and seeds for now and having more starches in the evening. I suspect you will feel more satisfied. I am 7 pounds from my goal and I definitely notice a difference in the weeks I avoid the nuts and stick with the starches more. (I typically lose about 1/4 pound a week, which is agonizingly slow, but if I cut out the nuts and seeds it can go up to 1/2 pound per week.) Also, is that coffee decaff? Because even if it is it does contain caffeine which will interfere with your sleep and elevate your cortisol, the stress hormone which causes us to store fat preferentially at the abdomen. It might not make a huge difference but you might try switching to something like Teeccino instead of coffee or even decaff.

Good luck on dealing with your beloved pet and the ensuing chaos. Sometimes the things that get me through those times is the Serenity Prayer and the saying that "this too shall pass".

Please keep in touch with the board. It is so nice to hear a followup, especially when it is working well.

[rcbinmichigan]

Thanks for your responses--yeah, I understand Dr McDougall claims nuts and seeds slow weight loss; however I work in the University of Michigan Preventive Cardiology, and the supervising dietitian has a PhD and is aware of and greatly respects Dr McD's work, although she finds him too strict, based on research and her clinical experience with patients. She thinks small amounts of nuts and seeds daily are healthful, and that a few every day will not impede fat loss.

I eat them because I have few crunchy foods left--I gave up Grape Nuts in this change. I can eat raw veggies up to a point, but they don't satisfy like a few nuts, dates, and a cup of coffee do!

The evening coffee I drink is decaf, and I continue to discuss this with our dietitians. As a University clinic, we do a lot of research and keep up on other research, and there's so much conflicting research on coffee and caffeine that my dietitians address it with each individual's specific responses. Because I have been drinking coffee since I was in the womb, my body has a muted, adapted response. I feel calmer, I drink a lot more water to counter any dehydration that might occur, and I don't have other symptoms that the dietitians look for in overuse. I don't ever think or say it's healthy, and except for the psychological aspect it would be a good thing for me to let go of. My dietitians will say it's best not to drink it, but looking at health issues, signs & symptoms, and with everything else I'm doing, they don't think it's a player. Caffeine helps to burn fat, but not in someone like me who's so adapted to it!

[hope101]

Rbc, I understand you respect the dietician you work with, and in the end she certainly may be right. All I can tell you is that the first man who ever showed heart disease can be reversed by diet, Dr. Esselstyn, and as far as I know the second man who proved it in large scale trials, Dr. Dean Ornish, are not fans of nuts. Dr. McDougall does permit nuts in small quantities, particularly if you are lean and fit. While a person is trying to lose weight he doesn't recommend them. A serving of nuts that is only worth 50 calories a day leads to a 5 pound weight gain in a year. For those of us fighting to get the last few pounds off that might make all the difference of accomplishing that in 2007 vs 2008. For you it just might not be worth it.

Likewise for the decaff, I certainly didn't think I was doing anything "wrong" by drinking my 4 cups decaff daily before. But when I couldn't have my decaff I sure noticed with a withdrawl headache. Believe me, I know a withdrawl headache. I decided to try the Teeccino, expecting to be less than impressed, but I actually really like it. You brew it just like coffee and it looks the same. It tastes kind of like those International coffees. Now, if I have a cup of decaff at someone's home I can sure feel the difference. DH has been a caffeine addict for years. He swore to me it made no difference to him to drink his diet coke just before bed. We have been married 24 years and this has been a recurring addiction for him, so I have been through his caffeine withdrawl many times. I can tell you the exact day he goes decaffeinated by the marked reduction in his restless leg movements at night and my corresponding increase in sleep. But he still swears to this day that caffeine makes no difference to his body. (Which seems paradoxical to me since, if it makes no difference, why would he drink it when there are alternatives that taste just the same.)

Anyway, you can decide for yourself if these suggested changes are to food-policeish for you. You just asked for more suggestions and I believe in giving people what they want.

[rcbinmichigan]

Yes, thank you, I did ask for input and I do appreciate it all.

I don't think my coffee/caffeine habit is healthy at all, I just don't feel emotionally ready to part with it! My dietitians gently suggest I do, but I do cling to it as a very effective calming agent. So I guess I'm choosing the pychological benefit over the the benefits of giving it up. I realize I'm arguing in favor of my habit. It also staves off hunger, so there are many times I'd rather have a big mug of coffee than shove food in my mouth.

As for seeds/nuts, I don't disagree that they may be impeding my desired fat loss, esp since my body is so comfortable at the weight I'm at. I only eat a small handful (or less) many evenings, because McDougall and you all keep reminding me to question their role in my fat-loss goals. It sometimes feels like the difference between a full meal or a few seeds/nuts and coffee, so I choose the latter.

I work with several people who are trying to lose weight and eat healthier--more vegetables, more raw--and they include olive oil along with lesser amounts of animal foods, and continually complain of little or slow weight loss. Seeing coworkers following the mainstream "low-fat" nutritional guidance barely losing weight keeps reminding me how added fat impedes the loss. The standard guidelines may be inadequate, but they're also hard for many people to follow, to reduce their junk food/fat consumption even to those levels.

I used to be a stress eater, so coffee and nuts/seeds are my only "indulgences" any more!

Best

[hope101]

Well, then I guess you should continue to enjoy your nuts and coffee until you don't. Take care.

BTW, in case the humor didn't come through on-line, that was meant to be a joke, not a put-down.

[JulieF]

This is a great thread!

I'm 52 and am in the last thoes of menopause. I had my two children in my early 20s, and I had a flat stomach again within a few weeks after my second child was born. It wasn't until a few years ago--in the midst of menopause--that I started gaining a lot of weight around my middle. Even when I got fairly heavy once in my 40s, I always had a flat, small waist. So this is a big change for me, and one that I'm definitely not enjoying. What's been even more upsetting to me is that more of the excess weight is above my waist than below it.

I start the MWL program at the end of January and have lost 20 pounds. I always lose and gain weight evenly (all parts of my body), so it takes a while before my weight loss really shows up. But I've noticed that my belly fat is definitely decreasing. I still have more fat above my waist than below, but I'm hoping that by the time I get all my excess weight off, this will be just a bad memory. I think that having my children so young has helped me maintain my muscle tone in my abdomen (and I've never had any abdominal incisions). I'm going to be very interested to see what my belly looks like when I get the rest of my weight off (I need to lose another 50 pounds).

[Mayflowers]

Just my two cents. You seem to do a lot of resistance exercise and weight training. Did you ever see Escape your Shape? The guy who developed that program had two people, one was a runner and the other like to weight train. Not a Arnold mind you but thought weight training would help him lose. He was bulky all over and couldn't lose it. The runner was very thin and wanted to bulk up.

The guy told them to switch exercise routines, if the weight lifter wanted to slim down, to stop lifting weights and start running instead and vise versa for the runner. He told him to stop running and start lifting weights. Maybe you're trying too hard to get that six pack and are instead bulking up the muscles which push the fat outward. Are you using those ab machines with the heavy weights and do sitting crunches in them? You might be making yourself bigger that way.

Also, I don't know your body type. Are you a ruler, inverted cone or a spoon? I'm a spoon...big hips small top. Inverted cone is naturally bigger on top and stick legs. Rulers are straight up and down with no shape like no hips and no waist. If you are a cone, you shouldn't be using any resistance with your upper body or at the most very light resistance, and use much resistance on the lower body. The reverse with spoons.

[Malva]

From my experience, I've become much more "ruler" like since I started long-distance walking and jogging. I had lifted weights when I was in my late 20s early 30s, and I definately have a different look today.

I'm 5'4", 115 lbs, 53 year old woman.
I have a flat stomach after having had a Dunlap belly for too long.
(A Dunlap belly can be referred to as a "spare tire" or a belly that "done laps over the belt".)
The excess skin takes a while to ease back to normal, but most of it will go back. What doesn't is caused by gravity and age.

[Mayflowers]

How can you be McDougalling and be 40 pounds overweight? People always lose weight doing his plan.

[DianeR]

How can you be McDougalling and be 40 pounds overweight? People always lose weight doing his plan.

Well, no. Sometimes people need to up the exercise and switch to a more MWL type diet to get where they want to be. I wasn't overweight but I did weigh more than I wanted -- after more than five years on McD. So last year I undertook to lose the unwanted weight.

My husband is overweight and tries to McDougall. At least he eats vegan and is McD at home. But a combination of eating out each lunch (and nights when he has to work late) and limited time for exercise means he hasn't been losing at all.

How people react to the diet is really idiosyncratic. Some lose quickly, some slowly, some in fits & starts, and some have to really work to get those last few pounds off.

OK, I answered a question addressed to someone else. I tend to do that

[Mrs. Doodlepunk]

How can you be McDougalling and be 40 pounds overweight? People always lose weight doing his plan.

not always. If a person is subclinically hypothyroid, for instance, they can do this for 4 years and not lose much at all. I speak from experience!

Lots of people need to follow the MWL guidelines to lose, and stay the same weight on the regular 12 day plan.

[hillrunner]

While not vegan (or vegetarian these days), Clarence Bass (www.cbass.com) eats pretty close to what Dr. McDougall recommends.

Breakfast is grains with red or kidney beans, frozen berries stirred together. (I have his video and he does add 1 tspn of creatine monohydrate and two tablespoons of protein powder.)

Lunch is whole grain bread with a nut butter spread or Boca Burger, apple.

Dinner is either rice & beans or large salad with a grain side. I believe he started adding <3 oz of animal protein to his evening meals.

While Bass admits to having used steroids when he was 40 for a bodybuilding contest, he notes he has not used them since.

But, looking at his success with a diet that is +60 - 70% starch based, you can see not only is getting a flat stomach possible but getting "ripped" is probable.

BTW, Andreas Cahling was rumored to have used steroids.

And avoid--if you want to your back to stay healthy and strong--any and all "ab machines". Two family members have herniated discs because of those devices. One of the foremost back experts in the world, Dr. Stuart McGill, notes ab machines takes your back out of its normal safety range and compromises your support structure. Crunches on the floor--you only need to move ~ 1 - 2"--is all that is needed.