Flat tummies possible on McDougall?

[rcbinmichigan]

Happy Holidays everyone.

I have asked this question before and haven't found the "right" answer for me yet. I was an overweight vegan and fitness enthusiast when I discovered this site in 1999, and have been mostly MWL since Feb 2000. I lost a lot of weight, but still am "thick" in the middle. I would like to lean out--lose the bulge from belly button to thighs.

I have been a lifelong fitness enthusiast--lifting weights seriously so I have a lot of muscle (trying to reduce muscle, actually--I'm so naturally muscled, and my body responds so readily to resistance work); a runner; I do a lot of cross-training cardio, boot camp (love plyometric work!), circuit work outs, interval work outs, kickboxing, yoga, stability ball and other advanced core work outs--I get a wide variety to constantly keep my body guessing and challenged.

I eat when I'm hungry and primarily I eat potatoes, peas, corn, green beans, beans, bananas, oats/rye/barley/oat bran with berries for breakfast, with other vegetables thrown in (incl. occasional salads). Rarely flour products or processed foods, and no added oil.

I don't measure how much I eat, since Dr. McDougall says one can eat vegetables without worrying about measuring. I try to believe him when he says eat when you are hungry. I don't want to measure what I eat and be that obsessed with food--and yet I do want to hone this diet and get my body to burn this excess fat.

Are flat tummies possible on the McDougal diet? Because I know personal trainers (and I am a personal trainer) who eat "high protein" and have flat bellies/6-packs and look fabulous, and I see me after nearly 7 years on MWL and I'm chubby. I talk up the McDougall diet and website, but don't think I'm the best model for it, next to a high-protein diet flat-bellied trainer.

Scientific, rational, practical guidance desperately requested!!

[VeganMan]

I'm sorry to hear your struggles and especially for as long as you have been at it with the workout load you use.

I have not been McDing for very long (3months) and have not been extremely strict with it as well. But I'm in the 90% McDing range now and have only been doing moderate workouts. I eat very low-fat/low-protein meals and I am quickly seeing results (flat belly). I am 24 years old and have always had a very good metabolism, so I'm sure that has plenty to do with it as well.

I'm looking forward to my first six pack, I've dropped 27lbs in the short time on this diet and am currently at 178lbs, 6'.

I tracked my typical diet and exercise on fitday.com to make sure I had a good balance of caloric intake/burn.

I'd be more interested to hear details of what you're eating and how oftern and how often and what duration you are working out.

Let's hear more so we can help you

[chewy]

a flat tummy is definitely possible on MWL .maybe you could try eliminating the gluten grains you eat and replace them with gluten-free(brown rice,millet,quinoa etc.)Many people discover that they have gluten intolerance and can't lose the last bit of weight until they eliminate all gluten from their diet. I got a flat tummy after eliminating gluten and I've had a baby and am 38 (5"3 and 104 pounds). I eat MWL and stick to 2 fruits,lots of raw and steamed greens,legumes ,ground flaxseed and brown rice (rice cakes are my preferred form).I am very active.It's worth a try!
Happy Mcdougalling!

[rcbinmichigan]

VeganMan & Chewy:

There is a big difference between a 20-something man and a post-menopausal woman--the hormones shift in women to deposit and keep more fat around the middle. Before I hit my mid-30's, I wasn't a clean vegan and didn't work out as much or smart as I do now, and had a much flatter/slimmer, lean, athletic physique. Sigh--I have to learn how to dance a healthy dance with my age/hormones.

In 3 of my exercise science classes we had to keep a diet log and enter the information into nutritional software that analyzed it--then we had to analyze it. Every semester (from 2004-2005) I pretty much hit dead-on the calories and nutrients (except fat, as McDougal is no added fat and that looked deficient to the software) required for a woman my age, size, and activity level.

My breakfast grains are organic from Whole Foods; the main veggies I eat are frozen and I steam them. I use Vegit, soy sauce, and a hot sauce for flavoring. So I do an intense a.m. workout, and eat when I get to work. I have the cereal (sometimes spread out over an hour or more, as I graze while at work).

I usu have a smallish-medium potato between 10-11:45. I eat a small lunch (potatoes, and 3-4 veggies, all in a square-4"x4"?- Rubbermaid) when I return from my noon workout, around 1-1:45. I may graze that lunch, taking a couple of hours to finish it. I may have something smaller around 3-4pm.

I get home around 5:30 and take the dog out for a bike ride (she trots beside me), then maybe I'll do some core work or yoga; occasionally an additional hardcore weight workout (targeting other body parts). Then I'll eat, pretty much the same as lunch but with perhaps a bunch of steamed green beans &/or salad strewn all over the top.

Then when I retire I sit with air-popped popcorn and read.

I have been also snacking with some dates, a bit of nuts, and Grape Nuts in the evening in front of TV for about a year or 1 1/2 years, and I've found I haven't gained anything from doing this--so it's not the dried fruit or nuts that's stalling, as I was stalled way before then.

I also work at the U of Mich Preventive Cardiology, and talk a lot with our dietitians (dairy-consuming mostly vegetarians) who say they wished their patients could be as conscientious as I am (that my diet is stellar). They are becoming more experienced with gluten problems, so I will talk to them about that when they return next week. I'm not happy with the thought of giving up my grains--what would I eat for breakfast that's easy to cook and eat at a desk?

Any other tips are invited here!

Thanks to all!

[NancyG]

I heard somewhere (from a fitness expert) that the flat tummy is a genetic thing - you can certainly reduce the flab and increase the muscles, but not everyone can get down to that washboard stomach. Don't know if that's true (he didn't get into the age effects, either).

Trying to verify the above, I found some other info at this site. Excerpt follows:

Stress is an important factor not to be ignored. One Yale University study of 41 overweight women ages 18 to 40 found a significant correlation between those with excess abdominal fat and those who had an elevated cortisol (stress hormone) response to stressors perceived to be outside their control. It is notable that dieting itself can often provide such a stressor, resulting in a dangerous loop that more aggressively deposits body fat to the most visible area as we more aggressively try to diet it off. Stressors outside our control, particularly when they invoke a combination of adrenaline and cortisol, cause fat to be redistributed from legs and other areas to our middle. The elusive culturally inspired goal of the flat stomach can become a biological trap for some people, particularly women who try to achieve it through dietary restriction. Meditation and light exercise of various kinds are both extremely effective for stress reduction.

[hope101]

Rcb, what strikes me from looking at your eating plan is that you have a lot of starchy vegetables, and not so many green leafies. Otherwise it looks excellent. I would suggest adding at least 2-3 cups of green leafy vegetables to your lunch, to eat first, and try to decrease the proportion of starchy vegetables.

Are you actually overweight, or is it just the shape of your abdomen that bothers you? You might consider an immersion test if you haven't done so to settle that issue. Have you had children? Is it possible it isn't fat you are fighting but beaten up abdominal muscles, such as rectus diastasis.

You already avoid fat--excellent. Sounds like you don't do high fructose corn syrup, but I'd check any condiments or processed foods for that (it has preferential distribution for abs, unfortunately). Are you getting enough sleep? I second the link to sleep deficit or excessive stress and abdominal fat distribution.

Hope that gives you a few ideas.

[Mrs. Doodlepunk]

rcb, I'm in probably a similar situation as you regarding age and hormones, but am not as physically active. I have been McDougalling for almost 4 years and had not lost much weight at all until the past couple months. What I did to start losing was stop eating any dried fruits and nuts and nut butters, and no bread. Well, almost no bread. I also eat a big raw salad every day, usually shredded cabbage and other vegetables. It seems to be working. I do notice that the weeks I eat more oats I don't lose as much weight as when I have potatoes for breakfast. I have a fairly low gluten intake otherwise.

I notice that your diet is great, except maybe not enough raw vegetables. Also, you are snacking on dried fruit and nuts. That may be doing it. The MWL guidelines might help you more here, they say to avoid nuts and dried fruit, also bread and pasta, and eat more raw vegetables.

In addition, I have the rectus muscle problem that's been mentioned, I have the diastasis that just will not go back together. I probably will always have a funny looking abdomen but hopefully the fat that is hanging on it now will melt off and it will look better.

Please let us know what you learn from your colleagues about the gluten issue!

[rcbinmichigan]

Thanks, everyone, for your thoughtful responses.

I've heard about the variance of genetics, and keep that thought in mind; however, prior to my mid-30's, I had a far flatter/slimmer physique with less clean eating and physical training. So I'm not so sure about that....

Stress: I've had college course in the physiological impact of stress, as well as we have a stress mgt program here (that I support). I know this is a very integral part of not only physique, but overall health, and more importantly, quality of life. I come from a dysfunctional family with poor coping skills, and have spent my adult life cultivating a more authentic, calmer way of living--hence vegan and daily exercise behaviours. So my response to that thought is that on the one hand, I do employ self-awareness and stress-reducing tools, and on the other hand, I need to deepen that practice. I will be taking my stress mgt specialist (co-worker) stress mgt class starting up in a couple of weeks, and a friend and I will be doing a fire-painting (using painting to access inner expression) 2-day workshop in Feb. I just had rotator cuff surgery, so once it's healed and I have the green light, I'm going to take a Real Yoga from a center not too far from where I work. So I am aware I need to deepen this and am setting goals for the new year to do so.

Hope101: according to Dr. McDougall, one doesn't need to be concerned with how many starches one eats, that they help one to not feel unsatisfied. He's written about peoples who primarily live on potatoes, so I've assumed he's correct in those statements and that fitness buffs who think potatoes prevent weight loss were misinformed. So I wonder--is Dr M correct or incorrect in saying eat as much as you need to be satisfied, or do I need to measure and weigh and not get over a certain limited amount?

I probably don't eat as much leafy greens and raw veggies as a lot of vegans do, but I go thru my phases. I am just below (fractionally) the overweight line for my height. We did a lot of bodyfat/body weight testing in ex. sci. classes, as well as using a a bodyfat machine downstairs that we use with our patients. And I'm pretty consistently just under that cut off. I've never had children. I do no processed foods, esp avoiding white sugar and corn syrup.

Sleep--now there is one area I skimp on. I stay up late reading, and get up early for intense exercise. This is one behavior I know I need to alter.

Mrs. D--Dried fruits and nuts--I started MWL in Feb 2000, and didn't add these back in until less than 2 years ago. I was at about the same weight before I added them in (I've actually lost a little, cause jeans that wouldn't fit me back before I added them, fit me now). So they're not what's stalling me, otherwise I'd easily eliminate them.

So I think besides working on stress mgt/self-expression (which I recognize I want to do) and getting better sleep, my question remains:

Are potatoes fattening for some people (meaning Dr M is incorrect when he states they're a wonderful food)? I question because I hear so much in fitness circles--from people with flat tummies--to eliminate them to get that lean look. Perhaps I just need to try it and see if there's any change for me?

Thanks, all, and more ideas/suggestions are welcome.

[Mrs. Doodlepunk]

I personally think potatoes are great. I notice that when I eat them I lose faster, probably because they are lower in fat.

I think that some people (like me!) who eat starches until satisfied tend to not lose weight, and that was my only concern after reading your post, maybe the cereal is too refined and too readily turned into fat? Maybe you could make sure you eat raw vegetables first, then if still hungry, eat some of your cereal? That has worked for me.

My initial reaction to the people who say potatoes are bad is that most people eat them with things that are bad for you - sour cream, bacon bits, fried in oil or other fat, butter, etc. When eaten with no other condiments or additives they are fine. Most people don't understand this, my own doctor even told me to not eat potatoes because they are equivalent to a candy bar. Or was it an apple is equal to a candy bar? It probably doesn't matter, I don't eat candy bars and I eat lots of potatoes and apples and I'm losing about 1.3 pounds of body fat per week.

I think that some McDougallers here have had to remove potatoes and other foods from their diets because of problems. Maybe you are one of those people? Gluten problems and other things can also influence weight loss and health.

I have read a little about stress and body fat, but am certainly not knowledgeable on the subject. The topic is very interesting and I would be grateful if you would keep us posted on what you learn. I admire your drive to get answers and improve your health. You will succeed.

[Purdy]

Are flat tummies possible on the McDougal diet? Because I know personal trainers (and I am a personal trainer) who eat "high protein" and have flat bellies/6-packs and look fabulous, and I see me after nearly 7 years on MWL and I'm chubby. I talk up the McDougall diet and website, but don't think I'm the best model for it, next to a high-protein diet flat-bellied trainer.

Scientific, rational, practical guidance desperately requested!!

Well, I really don't know if you are male or female, but just suppose you were a male and had a girlfriend who had moderate-small size breasts.
So she is feeling bad about that and would like them to be larger.
What should she eat? What should she do for exercise?
From what I've heard, men wanting 6-packs are in for some of the same problems. A good portion of people, regardless of weight, are not gonna develope 6-packs, any more than some woman is gonna exercise her way to larger breasts. Much of the abillity to develope outstanding 6-pack abs is genetic. You many lose that excess midsection weight, exercise like heck and still not have a very definitive 6-pack look.

NOW........now what is really bizzare and kind of crazy is that this "6-pack" thing is so much a fad and those in your age category can't even see it.
I was always fit in highschool and college back in the later 60's and early 70's.... Spent a lot of time around the sports teams, gym, track, and even around "cool" people from all political and social spectrums.
Guess what..........NO ONE..........NO ONE....was interested in or aware of this thing called "6-packs"....
If you had told someone you were trying to develope a "6-pack" they would have looked at you like you were from some strange planet.

Oh, there was probably one exception to that. Probably those in the muscle building world, like Arnold, were developing "6-packs" but only for competition, certainly not for health or for showing it to anyone in the normal world.

So my friend, you are concerned about something that is a truely bizzare concept to anyone other than younger people who have been snagged by this strange behavior. Yet you have taken it as something real.
To me, since it confers little in the way of health, it is like seeing that strange dress code during the disco years.
Persue it if you must, but please realize that a "6-pack" has nothing to do with health or fitness.
Wait a while and something new will become cool.........
You've been snagged by some group pressure to look the part of someone who is fit, rather than being satisfied by just being fit.
Working and being around the crowd you are around may blind you from this realization. Get some advice from someone you look upon as having wisdom. (I doubt any of those personal trainers, perhaps even including yourself, are gonna be able to look at this from rational point of view as they are too invested in everyone being and especially "looking" buff)

[Malva]

I'm 53, and used to have a "spare tire" aka "dun-lap disease" where my belly rested in my lap when I sat down.
It is now flat.
I have been on a strict MWL diet for two years.
No bread, no beans, small amounts of fruit.
LOTS of water, green tea and raw veggies.

This is far stricter than the regular McDougall program, but some of us have to be on a more restricted diet in order to lose the extra weight and improve health. Many of the Asians that eat large amounts of starch were never fat, and so they can eat heartily without gaining. But once you've allowed yourself to get overweight, then there's this balance game that your body plays, and it tends to absorb and retain more calories.
Most of the folks I know who have been thin most of their lives don't have significant weight gains when they get older. But those of us who did have to be far more careful because when we ate to excess when we were younger, we taught our bodies a lesson (fat storage) that it never forgets.

[victw]

I didn't read all the replies in detail - but I didn't see a mention of your height and weight.

Have you measured your bmi?

If you are in the normal category for bmi - then it might just be a body shape issue.

I have some ab definition - mostly developed from yoga. However I have a bit of tummy - with diligence I could lose another 5 pounds. I am not sure if this would cure me of my tummy.

I am assuming that you have some weight to lose - it sounds small - something like 5-10 pounds. If this is the case - then yes all those small things make the difference. To lose a pound you have to get rid of an extra 3500 calories. You either burn it - or eat less. If you are already fit and active then your choice is to look at those extra calories.

Since you say you have logged diligently in the past do you know how many calories a day you are consuming? General rule of thumb is 10x the desired weight. 100 calories a day over that amount will gain you a pound a month. Subtract it and you lose a pound.

Yes Dr. McDougall says eat when you are hungry. But how many of us actually have a good sense of hunger? I don't.

Those last 5 pounds go slow. And micromanaging and counting calories might be an option if this is a desired goal.

One last thought - are the nuts salted? If you are consuming more than the recommended salt then water retention could be a factor.

Vicki

[hope101]

Rcb, glad you asked further questions because I think I confused you. It isn't that starches are bac--they are essential for anyone, but especially this way of eating. It is merely that it appears to me your proportion of starches to other vegetables might be a bit off. Here is a link which might explain further.

http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2005nl/ ... ushing.htm

From what you are saying, you are not overweight, just struggling for an ideal physique which might require a lower body fat for you than some other people. If so, you might need to eat closer to the MWL way of eating than the regular McDougall plan. That might help you lose another 5-10 pounds, which may reveal your fit abs. As you know, we have no control over which fat goes first when we lose weight. It may be that you are set up genetically for abdominal fat, or that your sleep deficit is perisisting, but all you can do is try to lose a little more weight, as long as you stay in the healthy zone, if having a six pack is truly important to you. That means ditching the dried fruit and nuts, eating a higher amount of fresh vegetables and cutting back on your portions of starches. No measuring at all.

I am at a healthy BMI, and my cardiologist is happy with my weight, but I want a bigger margin of error from weight being a problem (I have congenital heart disease) and I am frankly tired of looking a little heavier than I like. I went low fat and vegan and lost weight, but then plateaud. When I started eating more green leafy vegetables and got rid of dried fruit and the few nuts I nibbled on, my weight is starting to come off. You sound really open to trying to lose the last few pounds, so you might want to give it a try. But potatoes and starches are good, and you don't need to measure or obsess about quantities.

Hope that is clearer than my previous post.

[hope101]

PS: I see my spelling is worse than usual. Please ignore.

[rcbinmichigan]

Thanks, again, everyone for your explicit responses.

So I bought a bunch of raw salad makings last night and told hubby I was gong to try to eat a big salad every day (and he likes sharing that with me, the big high-fat meat eater!).

So I'm going to try to eat as little potato as I can, but always have a lot on me so I can graze if I'm feeling hungry.

I'm going to try to carry carrots with me and snack on them, and keep them in the house for snacking on as opposed to nuts.

I'm measuring the popcorn I airpop at night, to reduce the amount I consume while reading in bed.

Is there a certain kind of green tea that's effective, or not? I heard co-workers saying the green tea we have here at work is not "real" green tea.

I will talk with our dietitians here once they're back to work re: gluten intolerance and other more scientifically tweaking of the diet.

I know there are people who dismiss the desire for a flat tummy/6-pack, and that it is far important to love oneself as one is, and not chase after cultural standards that may be very difficult for most people to achieve. Yes, in my circles (of fitness enthusiasts) this is a hot topic. There are high-protein meat eaters on the fitness board I frequent who were overweight and now are buff with flat tummies (many have had several children). So if the only way I can have a flat tummy is by eating animal foods, then I will never have a flat tummy. But I'd like to know if high-carb McDougalling vegans can acquire that, esp post-menopausal McDougalling women. Then, if a client asks me about that, I can have a factual answer. And, I like the look--and if I can obtain it and maintain it as a healthy clean-eating vegan, I'd like to do so. If I tweak my diet with all these suggestions, and whatever my dietitians say, and I still don't reach it--so be it.