Ex-ETLer moving to McDougall

[Chile]

There was an interesting unscripted debate between Fuhrman and McDougall on a video clip on vegsource, but it doesn't seem to be around anymore. I think Dr. McDougall had the better of it. Dr. Fuhrman was looking at things theoretically, while Dr. McDougall was saying, "Let's look at the world and the diets that have been sustainable and successful for actual populations."

Here's a link to that debate: http://www.vegsource.com/articles2/panel06.htm

[ncyg46]

i saw the entire thing on the vegsource dvds. It's on the 2006 set. I can't view any video this week with my connection!

He is still badmouthing Dr. M, this is one of the last posts I saw before I left the site:
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from the ask the doctor forum:


"There is no reason to take Juice Plus in addition to a healthy diet and Juice Plus cannot take the place of a healthy diet.

I read Dr. McDougall's newsletter on the subject and had commented on it here in this catagory already. There was a whole line of comments and back and forth. I was shocked by the obvious bias, inaccuracies and important ommisions.

I even pulled and read the articles he had referenced for his conclusions and found the articles concluded the opposite. I feel strongly that Vitamin D supplementation saves lives, bones and disability. It has over a 50-year record of safety and effectiveness and tons of studies detailing how valuable it is and how potentially dangerous and prevelant Vitamin D deficiency is.

Relying on the sun, promotes skin cancer, and will leave the majority of Americans in a dangerous deficiency state. "

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one of the reasons I am here instead...got tired of his badmouthing and nastiness

[Clary]

I appreciated this point of view shared by KareninTN earlier today in the "first week of CHIP program" thread started by momof4. One of those "feel good" thoughts to ponder:

When I was at the 10-day, asking Dr McD about another teacher with similar, but not identical ideas, he said, "We're on the same team. Everyone who's getting people off the Standard American Diet is part of the same team. It's you people ( students, patients) who try to turn us into adversaries."

This was in reference to that famous "debate" between McD and Dr Fuhrman at the Vegsource conference, (which is still available for viewing on youtube somewhere.) So I'm taking Dr McD at his word that, "it's all good."
karenturtle

I liked reading that, and knowing that Dr. McDougall holds that point of view. Kinda' reminds me of one of the "12-Step" ideas to try to focus on principles over personalities.

[ncyg46]

that's what I like so much about the various doctors promoting good health, they are basically all on the same page as they say, and in all their books they reference and commend each other....except for Dr. Fuhrman. I believe in most of what he promotes but do not like him as a person, and it wouldn't hurt him to get off his pedestal and join the other doctors as part of the team. I left because he has one viewpoint, his, and is all about the $$$$$. Maybe he has too much on his plate but he needs to regroup and stop being so nasty to people! I won't say anymore...I commend Dr. McDougall and his work and he is a wonderful speaker and person. I would really like to meet him and his wife. Hopefully I can get to Santa Rosa in our travels!

[Suebee]

Yes I agree with everything that has been said here. I'm sorry I signed up for Furhman back in December. I'm probably going to keep paying the $8 a month until AFTER my husband and I attend his Health Conference in the Poconos. Yes, it is VERY expensive but it will be for our 35th wedding anniversary and my husband wanted to do something special. At the time all I had seen was Dr. F's talk on the necessity of eating nuts/seeds/avocados and how Dr. McDougall's plan and others was too low in fat. I wanted something my husband would be willing to follow and he took a dislike to Dr. McDougall after meeting him personally at the Summerfest we attended a few years ago in Pennsylvania. Dr. McDougall and his wife arrived late to dinner and were escorted to our table. I don't really want to air that here. My husband didn't attend the lectures that week as he only acted as the chauffeur to the week-long conference. The only reason I bring it up is because I've been wanting my husband to follow a vegan plan he could live with because of his high cholesterol/triglycerides and the fact that he wouldn't go along with a very low-fat diet. He likes the blended salad drinks I make and the nut dressings. But we really haven't lost much weight on the Dr. Furhman because neither of us want to give up our grains either! I don't have much weight to lose--I would like to drop about 8 pounds. I really don't want to get as skinny as Dr. F proposes in his book. I've NEVER weighed that since childhood! Ok, maybe in my early teens. I don't like the emaciated look and at age 60 it wouldn't be very attractive.
You are right that Dr. F makes very derogatory comments at people and little patience. I have CLL and have managed to keep myself alive for 17 years without chemo. My oncologist has NEVER had such a patient!

[ncyg46]

just wanted to welcome you and hope you enjoy this program...I do. I still follow Dr. F as far as much more veggies and less grains but it seems to be working for me...

lol I can still see some of the posts on there although it would stop if i tried to post. I just didn't realize how indoctrinated some of the people are...heck I was told by one member that i should have fixed my health problems before going on the road...and she still has 53 lbs to lose and posts pictures all day long about her food. I so want to say get a life and go out for a walk instead of sitting there doing pics of food!! Sorry...won't say anymore but it's just crazy there.

I also dont want to look like Dr. F...aside from looking orange, he looks anorexic!

[auntemmy]

SUEBEE wrote: The only reason I bring it up is because I've been wanting my husband to follow a vegan plan he could live with because of his high cholesterol/triglycerides and the fact that he wouldn't go along with a very low-fat diet.

It is my (humble) opinion that being on a program you can live with is very important. Alot of people here have talked about being vegetarian for a long time and eventually giving up dairy and eggs, etc. The "word" on "good" oils had made it difficult for me to give up up olive oil and walnuts etc but in my case I need to lose weight and I probably have enough oil in my body to last a long long time. Jeff Novick talks alot about eating 95% plant-based whole foods and I think we all have our 5% we are not willing to give up yet (if ever). Maybe, eventually things will change for your husband but in the mean time you are on the right path, don't you think?

[Suebee]

Thank you for making me feel welcome! I think this site is a much friendlier one and not so judgemental. I've already changed my husband's diet over the years and now he rarely gets animal protein at home--once in a while a bit of pork in a mushroom barley soup (I don't eat it), weaning him away from eggs for breakfast, etc. He now eats oatmeal with extra bran and a bit of ground flax, rice milk, dried fruit. Our downfall is things that taste better with fat: popcorn, pancakes (once in a while), salads. I am using a vegan margarine but unfortunately it has some palm oil (yes, Jeff talked about how bad that is!). My husband will not leave it off the popcorn and there's no other margarine out there that tastes good. I've been using tofu mayonnaise on what he wants. He will eat beans, tofu, soy granules in spaghetti sauce, etc. It's pretty much a vegan diet. Once in a while when he pines for meat, I'll serve him fish. We now eat only sprouted grain bread or w/w pita. He has wine once in a while but only one glass. He's never smoked. He's never drunk coffee, he prefers good Japanese teas. He has SOME good habits! We don't usually eat sweets, desserts. He gets into that on trips and he used to buy good Vermont cheddar even if I didn't! After seeing the pics of arteries in Dr. Esselstyn's book and hearing him talk on a health DVD, he has said he needs to get serious! This all happened around Christmastime.

[auntemmy]

Suebee - I agree with you, this is a friendly site. Sometimes there are disagreements and agreements to disagree. I get so much from reading the posts. Sometimes I need a kick in the pants when I'm thinking foolishly ( is cheese really that bad?) and usually some other poor soul will ask the question... However I mostly like to be gently led to the right way of eating and I have recieved that here. My way of viewing certain foods has changed alot over the last three months because I have read the same good information time after time and have come to believe it and practice good eating habits. My tastes have changed in ways I never would have believed - tabasco on popcorn, hummus and cherry tomatoes, red potatoes with creamed corn or salsa - these are some of my favorites! I'm really grateful for the support I get here. I hope you'll stay, too.

[Suebee]

Thanks to you all! I went grocery shopping and found a tub margarine in the health food section of the supermarket that has no saturated fats (no palm oil) and my husband will have to get used to that if you wants that sort of stuff. Yes, Dr. F's high produce requirement was way too expensive! A head of romaine lettuce today cost me $3.50--at $l.99 a pound! That's what we have to pay in the Northeast where I am. All fresh produce is expensive. I don't even buy organic most of the time (certainly not lettuce!). I saw a great recipe online here at the forum for tofu mayonnaise which I will try as it will be less fat than Nasoya for sure! Bit by bit we are changing to healthier habits.

[ncyg46]

Ed and I are both bad...still use Smart Balance regular margarine, heard it is made by the same company that makes Earth Balance Vegetarian Margarine but I never get to those stores...I figure as little as I eat of it, I can use it occasionally What kind did you get???
i tried the light one time but hated it since they just had whipped water into it!!!

[Suebee]

Earth Balance buttery sticks was what I used to buy. Today I bought Spectrum spread (a little water, but at 90 calories a tablespoon--not a lot). I'm hoping it won't make popcorn too watery and it will be ok for the occasional pancakes. Lately popcorn is the offender--but I also sprinkle on nutritional yeast, vegetable salt mix and he likes cayenne too! But with a whole bowl of popcorn he wants about 2-3 T. of fat!! It's too high and with Earth Balance he was getting too much saturated fat. When he gets depressed over something he wants ice cream! This weekend was like that but we managed to talk ourselves out of it. Summertime it's much worse as there are ice cream stands all over around here. And he wanted to eat Indian food but because gas now costs so much and it's 20 miles away, we resisted that temptation too! We haven't had Indian food in months because it is too fatty and it's buffet style--oh my!

[ncyg46]

I get the one with flax oil but it's 80 calories and still has questionable ingredients. I figure we like the taste and use it so rarely that until we can find something else it will have to do! I don't do much popcorn. I guess Ed needs to buy some single service size microwave junk since I don't eat much of it!

He loves his buffets, I am a loser at a buffet, cant eat much! My downfall is Hot and Sour soup..can eat bowls of it! I had a bowl of Thai Hot and Sour and boy is that different!!! Their hot is HOT!!!!!!!!
I have to be really careful with some of the recipes posted and in Dr. M's books with the sodium content....

[starchman]

I've only been doing McDougall for a few weeks but I find it to be cheaper than ETL in both cost and prep time. My cholesterol ratio went from 5.1 to 1.9 in 8 weeks on ETL. But I was hungry. Now I am enjoying things I never thought to eat like potato sandwiches. I add a little ketchup or BBQ sauce and some jalopenos cause I like em spicy. Really satisfied for several hours.

[ncyg46]

i am getting used to it...main thing is i gained 5 lbs but I am not constantly hungry or just not eating since I hated every recipe I made on the other one...my numbers got worse and the site was very nasty and I just gave up.

I find I need to try new recipes, not used to all the mexican flavors but I am learning....