Ex-ETLer moving to McDougall

[Caprice]

Hi all,

I have been on the Joel Fuhrmann "Eat to Live" plan, but to be totally blunt, that plan is bankrupting me. The amount of fruits and veggies the plan requires was just too costly for me to buy. Plus...I miss my whole grains. And the affordabilty of a pound of organic old fashioned oats for 69 cents a pound versus $3.69 for 5 oz of organic lettuce is making this transition a bit of a treat.

I would be curious to hear from other ex-ETLers, especially those who found the cost of ETL to be the driving factor for seeking a different way of eating while still staying healthy. And also...how eating more grains has affected you for the good or bad.

[KareninTN]

Welcome to the McDougall board, Caprice. I consider myself a McDougaller, but I also belong to the Fuhrman center, and have tried to incorporate some of his ideas when they make sense to me. I can imagine that following ETL all the way could get pretty expensive!

I would really miss grains, too, so I understand. Just remember how much more calorically dense grains are than fruits, veggies and beans, and don't go overboard, and I'm sure you'll be fine. I find that I do better if I stick to whole grains like oats and rice and minimize flour products like bread and pasta.

good luck to you,
karenturtle

[stephanie]

I'm not exactly an ex-ETLer. I discovered Dr. McDougall first, then read Eat to Live, and I guess I would say I follow a combination of both.

The main problems I have found with strictly following ETL are the cost of all that produce and the fact that there were just too few calories with so little starchy food, so I was always hungry.

I agree with everything KareninTN said--watch that you don't go overboard on the grains because of the calorie density, and emphasize whole grains over flour. Also, remember that in addition to grains, potatoes and sweet potatoes (YUM!), plus winter squashes, are great sources of starch too. Also, one of the main things I have taken away from ETL is the concept of nutrient density, so keep that in mind too. When you eat fruits and veggies, keep eating some like leafy greens and berries that are especially healthy.

Welcome to McDougalling (or whatever combination of ETL and McDougalling works for you)!

[Faith in DC]

I learned a lot from Fuhrman, and it definately got me thinking about my fruit and veggie intake. I make sure I get all kinds of pretty colors in, and always have greens too. But besides the cost, is also the work. I have busy weeks, so I prep my food on sunday. I couldn't wash enough salad stuff on sunday because there wasn't no room in the fridge. I had to prep like 2-3 times a week, so it was very time consuming for me. Now, on sundays I still prep my fresh and I cook my rice and taters, but it's nothing like doing up that massive about of romain and lettuces.

[prairiedream]

Hi Caprice! I tried following Furhman's diet for a little while a few years ago but had the same problem with my bank account - it does cost a lot more to buy fruits/veggies compared to grains/roots. Now that I'm unemployed I can't afford to buy as much produce as he recommended.

I honestly think I feel better on the McD plan, too. I still eat a lot of veggies (two big salads a day and lots of frozen veggies) but I do love oatmeal and potatoes, too!

[Purdy]

"The amount of fruits and veggies the plan requires was just too costly for me to buy. "

"versus $3.69 for 5 oz of organic lettuce"

Curious as to where you live. I know I'm lucky to live in the SF Bay Area which is close to the farms where veggies are grown.

I think when I buy veggies, the per pound price seldom is ever above $1.00 for the whole purchase averaged.
To me, veggies are very cheap. I eat about 1.5 pounds per day plus fruit.
BTW, the fruit also averages less than $1.00 per pound.

Can't imagine spending $3.69 for 5 ounces... Thats $11.80 per pound.
I don't spend that much per week on all my veggies.

[Burgess]

For comparison, here are some produce prices from my last shopping trip at a Fred Meyer store, which is less expensive than Safeway and about 30-50% less expensive than Whole Foods.

Russet potatoes, 10 lb bag of culls, $1.59/bag: $3.18
Organic cantalope (on sale), $0.79/lb: $3.01
Yellow peaches (on deep sale), $0.88/lb: $3.23
Kale, med bunch, not organic: $1.29
Sweet potatoes, $0.99/lb: $5.28
Bananas, nonorganic, $0.49/lb: $0.53
Grapefruit, red, $0.99/lb: $4.02
Mushrooms, brown (cheapest available), $2.49/lb (sale): $2.02

Keep in mind that this is August, just about the cheapest month of the year for produce. Also hold in mind that when I tour the produce section, I buy:
- first, almost anything that has an orange "priced for quick sale" tag.
- then anything under $1/lb.
- then some things under $2/lb.
- then a few rarities (such as mushrooms) that are under $3/lb.

This time I did not buy grapes (about $3/lb, but occasionally on quick sale for $0.99/lb), which I love, or oranges (about $1.50/lb), and I almost never buy fresh tomatoes. I haven't bought lettuce in at least 10 years; it looks sickly (I usually go for strong colors), it isn't filling, and it is too expensive.

Prices for some listed items above, except the nonorganic bananas, are usually higher during the rest of the year.

About half the vegs I buy are frozen, chopped, in large (economical) bags: broccoli, cauliflower, green beans, bell pepper strips, spinach, and others. This way I get lots of variety, year round. I buy berries only in bags of frozen, whole berries. The fresh are much too expensive, even when they are "in season."

I generally avoid organic (too expensive), where I have a choice, and I generally avoid luxury items such as fennel (too expensive), but there is still a lot to choose from.

[prairiedream]

The prices in my area (Seattle) are comparable to Burgess's list. I buy meat to make food for my cats, and honestly the produce isn't much cheaper. Even potatoes are .99 a lb! I don't like to buy from the bag because there tend to be a lot of old ones in the bag.

I usually shop at Fred Meyer for vegetables but I find their fruits to be uniformly tasteless, I don't know who their fruit buyer is or if it's just the store I go to, but they're invariably mealy and bland.

[havfaith]

I'm in Spokane and Fred Meyer is my go-to place most of the time. The prices are good and the quality is usually good and they have a great selection of bulk foods, plus they're really close to home. I try to get a lot of my produce at Yoke's though. Their produce seems to last a lot longer than anyone else's (fresher apparently) and they sell a lot of local produce as well from a farm community 30 miles up the road.

I'd love to shop more of the farm stands around town, but the prices are crazy and unless you get there early, the produce looks a bit worse for wear after sitting in the heat all day. I stopped at one close to closing time and they wanted to give me a deal on nectarines for just under $1/lb when the store 1/4 mile away was selling WA nectarines for 68 cents/lb on sale. I do like to shop as locally (and non-chain) as possible, but my budget can only stretch so far.

[pitta24]

I found McDougall when I first became vegan ten years ago. I did the plan, ate a lot, lost weight and felt terrific. Somehow I fell away from it and over the years I have tried a lot of plans, most recently ETL. I live in Salt Lake City and our Costco sells the big 1# tubs of Earthbound Farms organic spinach and lettuce for $3.50. The cost wasn't as much of an issue for me as the restricted starch was. I would much rather have my starchy vegetables than unlimited fruit and some nuts. I was always hungry on ETL and would end up bingeing. Last week I got out all of my McDougall books and recipes and just ordered his DVD "McDougall Made Easy." I have missed brown rice, potatoes, squash, quinoa, buckwheat groats and polenta so much. They are truly comfort foods for me. My favorite snack is popcorn air popped with a spritz of Braggs. I really missed it too. I did learn a lot from Fuhrman about nurtrient density. I still have a huge smoothie (blended salad) each morning consisting of 1 cup of blueberries, 1 small banana (my two fruits), a splash of pomegranate juice, filtered water, broccoli, kale and baby spinach. Yum. My husband has one too. It sustains me all morning until lunch time. I am never hungry between meals on MCDougall. I love his newsletter and website and the fact that it is all free and available to anyone. My big downfall has been lack of exercise and I am recommitting to it as well as the McDougall MWL plan. I feel better already in just a few short days. My energy has improved and my skin and eyes look so clear.

[momof4]

Pitta24,
Would you give us the amounts of veggies you use in the smoothie?

[pitta24]

I use a Vitamix and fill it to the brim with the aforementioned amounts plus 3 or 4 kale leaves, 3-4 cups of fresh or frozen broccoli and 4 cups of baby spinach. It makes a 32 oz mason jar X 2, one for me and one for hubby.

Sandi

[busy91]

I'm not an ex-ETLer either, but I do find it somewhat expensive. And although his advice is sound, I don't think it works for me. In the past I've lost a great deal of weight eating grains and veggies/fruit. On ETL I've not lost very much. So I do a combonation of both.

Although on neither plan was I very hungry after the first week.

[susie]

I etl and don't find it all that expensive. However I cannot buy organic fruit and veg here, mainly because ther is not much around where I live. I dream of one day being able to purchase vegetables from a CSA, but sadly there aren't any in Oz.

I really like McDougalling too and I don't see much difference in the plans, except for the nuts/seeds. Right now I am McD'ing because I feel like it. I still have my smoothies for breakfast and mostly eat greens and veg. I also eat slightly more fruit than Dr McDougall reccommends.

I think I like Dr John more than Dr Joel personality wise. I also like this website, but post on ETL too. Just one thing. Dr McDougall is so generous with his free programme and I would like to say thank you and well done for that. As for the people, well there are nice people on both boards and I always end up learing something new.

[DianeR]

I'm not an ex-ETLer. I've just read about the program and watched a lecture by Dr. Fuhrman. I tried once eating like that ... it didn't last a day. I wanted my starches.

There was an interesting unscripted debate between Fuhrman and McDougall on a video clip on vegsource, but it doesn't seem to be around anymore. I think Dr. McDougall had the better of it. Dr. Fuhrman was looking at things theoretically, while Dr. McDougall was saying, "Let's look at the world and the diets that have been sustainable and successful for actual populations."

Also, I looked up the citations that Dr. Fuhrman used to say that his program lowered cholesterol more than a lowfat vegan diet. I thought he was drawing conclusions way out of whack with his support material. It was separate studies for different diets, frequently with different populations (male/female, age, etc.) It seems to me you have to do a direct comparison of diets under similar circumstances. Or at least be less dogmatic about your conclusions ... The lowfat diets like Esselstyn and Ornish have been the only ones shown to unclog arteries.

That said, I can do a better job at working in more veggies & fruits. I try, but it can be time consuming.