Some guidance needed after gym talk

[Snow White]

Hey all,

I visited a gym with my husband because we already have a membership but haven't been there during my pregnancy and afterwards. Now I wanted to start a new training there, but because of my long absence I had to re-do the initial talk with a trainer.
So far, so good.

First question was if I already do something for weight loss.
The trainer was okay with a vegan way of eating ( I was really surprised!) but he wants me to improve some things:

• He suggested 5 meals a day instead of 3
• He wants me to increase my calorie intake
• He said it would be wise to increase my protein intake on training days

I was somehow surprised how he calculated my calorie intake.
When I signed up for this gym my calories were read from a chart that considered gender, age, height and current fitness level.
Now he just checked my body fat, multiplied it with 30 (don't ask me why!) and said this would be my recommended calorie intake to lose weight. (In my case: Currently 45% of fat x 30 = 1350 cals a day) He said we will re-calculate this intake every month in the beginning only to maximize weight loss before we could concentrate to build up muscles.

What do you think of his suggestions?
Thanks for your help!

[vgpedlr]

There are a number of ways to estimate caloric needs, but they are just that, estimates. 1350 sounds pretty low for most people.

There is no magic about meal frequency, but differing opinions. The bodybuilding crowd likes frequent, smaller meals. Others prefer a variation of intermittent fasting. Individual variation. No harm in trying it to see if it suits you.

Ignore the protein discussion. Just follow the guidelines, or, have an extra serving of beans on training days if you like.

Trainers are not usually educated in nutrition, so keep that in mind.

[MINNIE]

Here are my thoughts.

Like your trainer I have no credentials or expertise in nutrition.
But I do have over 40 years personal experience with doing body building and weight training.

I also have experience eating a starch-based diet.

Based on what I have seen, I would say that his advice to wait to begin building muscle is total and utter nonsense.

You can do that at any time you want, including while being obese (if that were the case). I know some very fat power lifters ! NO, they are not models of good health, but they do have loads of muscle .

I also know thin underweight elderly people who have been able to put on muscle, with proper exercise. Weight is not the issue. Motivation and desire to improve are what matters.

I think it's important to understand that gyms are businesses, and they have to make money.

One way they do that is by selling supplements, diet plans, fitness programs that are not science-based, etc. You will probably be given a sales pitch for special protein and vitamin products, and so forth. You don't need them. The food you eat on a starch-based diet will give you everything you need.

Ethical gym owners and mangers do exist, but you may have to search for the right one that will meet your real needs.

But, it's also easy to do strength training on your own without a gym. Lots of basic information is available from books and on the web. (If interested I can recommend a few).

It is very easy to put on muscle even with moderate exercise, and you don't even need gym equipment to do this. There are body-weight and simple resistance exercises that can get you started, and they are safe if done correctly. It's really not a complicated thing (unless someone chooses to make it complicated).

I wish you the best of luck in improving your health and fitness:).

[Snow White]

Thank you both for your replies.

I know they usually employ no experts there, that's why I wanted to ask here.
The thing about the 5 meals was somehow confusing me, because I shall have 5 meals and my husband 3.
I shall increase my protein on training days only and my husband shall decrease his carb intake in general.
Well, I think when there are no benefits for me I will keep doing my way.
I already lose weight quite quickly and could even increase my muscle mass.

@MINNIE
Over 40 years experience? Hats off!
It would be great if you could name some of your recommended books - I'm very interested.
But I'm also interested in your experience in obese people gaining muscles. I read through the web and it seems almost everybody has the opinion that it isn't possible to gain muscles and lose weight at the same time. Actually my plan was to increase muscle mass and decrease body fat. To me this doesn't mean weight loss per se, but that I could also lose some weight. But the trainer told me this would be totally ridiculous. He said I had to lose weight first (eating less, regularly exercises) and then I could focus on gaining muscle mass (eating more, hard trainings and resting periods) which somehow sounds ridiculous to me. It sounds like starve and then stuff...

Some quick follow up question to this: I'm using the cross trainer daily at home. I would like to continue this evening routine, but the trainer told me on days of strength training cardio should only be a warm up and a finish of my training (10-15 mins, moderate speed). I'm using the cross trainer at a speed of 14 to 16 mph (hope it's converted correctly; I mean 23-25 km/h - so yes I am almost running ^^) for 30 to 45 mins and varying resistances. What's the big deal doing cardio and strength training together on one day?

[MINNIE]

Some quick follow up question to this: I'm using the cross trainer daily at home. I would like to continue this evening routine, but the trainer told me on days of strength training cardio should only be a warm up and a finish of my training (10-15 mins, moderate speed). I'm using the cross trainer at a speed of 14 to 16 mph (hope it's converted correctly; I mean 23-25 km/h - so yes I am almost running ^^) for 30 to 45 mins and varying resistances. What's the big deal doing cardio and strength training together on one day?

Snow White,

I think there is no big deal about doing cardio and strength training on one day. Of course I am not an expert on anything but my own experience and that of people I know. So, I do not want to sound like I am giving advice -just my thoughts:).

There are lots of myths and legends that you will hear if you spend time in gyms, or hang out with fitness professionals. Some are simply made up and repeated over and over. Some may have a factual basis. I don't know if there is any evidence for what your trainer is telling you about cardio v. strength training. I never bothered to find out because I was fine doing what worked for me.

I do know that I didn't have any negative effects from doing both on the same day, as long as I felt like doing it. I will tell you an anecdote that explains why I don't believe your trainer is right.

When I was a teenage girl, my fitness mentor was a relative who had been a pro boxer. He had also been a boxing coach and instructor in the Navy. He was middle-aged then, and still trained like a boxer, exercising every day. A typical day would be running outdoors if the weather allowed,or jumping rope and hitting a speed bag if he had to stay indoors. (This was cardio). Then he would lift some weights, do push-ups and/or callesthenics . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calisthenics. (This was strength exercise). Did it make him less of an athlete? I don't think so.

I tried to follow his example (yes, even learning some boxing moves) although I didn't work nearly that hard. But I got in the habit of not even thinking about which kind of exercise I was doing. I did what I felt was a good enough workout for that day and the amount of energy I had, and I stopped if something hurt. This got me to a fitness level that was satisfactory for me.

Then, look at how homo sapiens have lived for most of human history and prehistory. Peasants plowed and dug in the ground and carried water (strength). To get where they were going, they may have had to walk long distances, climb hills, row boats,etc. (Cardio). They may have done this while carrying heavy loads. (Strength). Hunter gatherers had to walk around, dig up roots, climb trees for fruit, carry all the stuff they found, and run from predators. Did they need to worry about whether they were mixing up cardio and weight lifting? Somehow, I doubt it:).

The bottom line is that you can use your own judgement about this. It sounds like you are doing really well with the cross trainer workouts. Why should you stop?

It sounds like you are losing weight, and you are probably getting stronger too.

Some people have the opinion that you can't put on muscle while losing weight. You can find out for yourself what is possible for you.

Now, if your goal is to be a Navy Seal, or try out for the Olympics, then things might be different LOL. But for ordinary people trying to get to a healthy level of fitness, I think simple exercise, common sense and consistency will get you there.

Just one lone lunatic's opinion, of course .

If you want to use free weights or exercise machines at the gym, maybe you can just do that on your own, and not use the personal trainer at all. It's easy to make up a simple basic routine with some help from a good book or video.

This is getting to be a long post, so I'll stop for now. I will post some links later for a book and free videos that might be helpful.

[vgpedlr]

Just one lone lunatic's opinion, of course .

Another lunatic's opinion, for what it's worth.

There's been a lot of research on what is called "concurrent training" or mixed aerobic and strength training. Some things to think about but nothing really definitive. I think there's a lot of individual variation involved, particularly when it comes to goals.

I think the trainer is concerned about the limited energy any body has for training and recovery. So he prioritizes strength on strength days by limiting cardio to warmup and cool down. This is a common practice and it works.

But there is more than one way to peel a potato.

One can certainly do both and many do. The body can multitask to a certain degree, and strength and endurance can be trained at the same time. The challenge is to balance both since they work in very different ways. Strength training is anabolic, building the body up, while cardio is catabolic, breaking the body down. One builds muscle, the other breaks down body fat for energy. Doing both means you can't do as much of either, limiting gains. Which is why a lot of trainers prefer people focus on one goal, strength or cardio, at a time.

So you can go with your trainer's advice and experience and see where it takes you, or do your own thing and see what happens.

BTW I don't know what a "cross trainer" is. Cross training refers to supplementary training at something other than your primary sport, like runners who get some of their miles done on a bike.

[MINNIE]

I thought OP was referring to something like this?

http://shop.lifefitness.com/cardio/ellipticals

[MINNIE]

Snow White,

In the interests of simplicity, I don't want to give you a long list of stuff that I might think is interesting but you might not:).
I have found the following information to be useful and accurate, and it doesn't cost anything either.

I like the Mayo Clinic's free videos and articles on exercise. (Their dietary advice however, is pretty unhelpful). They keep things simple, and show you how to do the movements with proper form.

To start out, this is one of the most useful things they tell you.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifes ... q-20058232

It contradicts a lot of the mythology out there about how complicated and difficult it is to build basic strength and muscle mass.

To see some different approaches to do-it-yourself strength training, at an entry level, you can browse through the material here:

http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifes ... t-20046031

They show you free weight, weight machine, body weight, and resistance band exercises. Any of these can be effective, and you can mix and match. You don't have to do all of the exercises, or at least not at first. You might want to try a few to build confidence, and then add more as you go along. The more you educate yourself about resistance training, the more power you will have to decide on your own best approach.

I don't want to get to wordy, or recommend one way over the other. I'll just say that I used to do -for decades -the complicated multiple sets, different body parts on different days, etc. kinds of workouts that often scare beginners away. Really, a lot of it was wasted time.

I could have had much the same results with a simpler routine and less of a time investment if I had known what I know now. I say that because when I finally did try simplicity, it worked fine:).

This year, with help from a sports medicine clinic, I have been experimenting with resistance band exercises. (You will see some in the Mayo videos). I recently had to get professional advice because of damaged shoulder joints. At my current age, going on 70, I needed to modify the way I exercise in order to avoid further joint damage.

I couldn't continue lifting weights and using machines they way I always had done. To my surprise, these exercises are similar in effect to free-weight exercises. I would not have believed it until a sports MD told me so, and I tried it for myself. Never too late to learn!

Whatever you decide to do -work alone, use a trainer, enroll in a class -I hope you will find that strength training is fun and empowering. It can also be quite easy and simple, should you wish to make it so.

Best wishes for your improved health and fitness!

[vgpedlr]

I like Dan John.

He has tremendous experience, makes things as simple or complex as you like, and super funny too. The books Intervention and Never Let Go are particularly good.

He boils it down to a few basic movements, which can be trained in different ways. If you hit them all in a week, you're ahead of most folks, if you cover all bases in a workout, you're golden.

The movements are:

Push
Pull
Squat
Hip hinge
Loaded carry
"Everything else"

So a push could be a push up, bench press, or overhead press and a pull could be any kind of rowing movement. A squat or lunge is a squatting movement, and the hip hinge is a deadlift variation. The loaded carry is carrying some amount of weight for distance, like a farmer's walk. "Everything else" is whatever the individual needs to work on, such as rehab, weaknesses, or specific sport or occupation needs. A workout could be as simple as 5 exercises, or more complicated and longer.

[greentea]

Just one lone lunatic's opinion, of course :-D .

Another lunatic's opinion, for what it's worth.

You can add me to that list! :lol:

I think your trainer was calculating was your TDEE http://www.iifym.com/tdee-calculator/

You've received so much great information already. I don't have much to add except my personal experience. I have been strength training for a while now and have been able to lose weight and put on muscle at the same time, all while mcDougalling. Now i'm at my lowest weight, I have had to eat more in order to gain extra muscle, which means putting on a few pounds, no biggy. I'm loving the results.
How many meals to eat? Find out what works for you. It's important to eat enough calories to fuel your muscles, but I think that your body will tell you when you are hungry. I tend to eat 3 meals a day, and do just fine. If I ever feel hunger between meals, I'll eat. I sometimes do cardio on the same day as training, but usually only for 15 to 20 minutes on a bike. On non-training days, i do conditioning work which gets my heart rate going such as sprints, pushing heavy sleds, pulling tires, carrying heavy loads (yes I'm crazy, but it 's fun for me!)
There are so many ways to train. If you are looking into strength training, some of the more popular methods are strong lifts 5x5, strong curves and Jim Wendler's 5/3/1 (had to edit, I mixed up Dan John and jim Wendler). I am finishing up my current routine and about to start into 5/3/1 and really looking forward to it.
My advice, just do it. At this point, you are just starting out, so don't worry too much about all the fitness "fog". You will figure out as you progress, but the important thing is to get going. I hope you fall in love with strength training as much as I have. I love what it has done for my body, and I also am enjoying the challenge of finding out what my body is capable of.

[bevan]

I was thrilled to find the Starch Solution. I have always been moderately active and have enjoyed walking, cycling, elliptical for winter, moderate weight training, conditioning, pilates and such (of course not all in one day). I have adopted the starch solution way of eating but continue to do research on the "fine details". I am happy to say that I also found that intermittent fasting only increases the rate of "fat loss". We know Dr. McDougall explains in his book that carbs are stored in the muscles and liver and in fact can be stored for up to 2 lbs or so. When we need energy we access those stores and if and when they are empty we burn fat. It never did make any sense to me that eating 5 to 6 meals a day (virtually makes you a clock watcher) worked in any meaningful way. I have found that intermittent fasting works really well on the starch solution. I personally follow a 16 / 8 IT plan. The results?...well I am not hungry on the starch solution so moving breakfast to hour sixteen (I'm usually in bed by 9:00) and stop eating at 6:00...so I break "fast" at 10 or 11. I exercise just prior to breaking my fast. I have increased energy beyond even those I have experienced with SS. By depleting the glycogen stores in the muscles and liver the body accesses body fat and it becomes increasingly more efficient at doing so. I do not restrict calories and keeping a food log I have found that indeed I eat more or less the same food per day only it is restricted to a smaller window of time. It works for me and I'd love to hear from the "qualified" folks what they think of IT.

[Snow White]

Thanks again for your replies and sorry for my belated answer.
I just wanted to say I kept my 3-meals-a-day thing, did both trainings together the last days, BUT observed the following thing:

With my three meals I usually reach something between 800 and 1000 cals.
I got a terrible headache after every workout. I'm usually no moanbag, but it was really heavy.
Sometimes I even had to break up, because I just wanted to quit the pain in my head.

Trainer grumbled about the "low calorie intake".

So I tried the 5-meals-a-day, same amounts, just splitted my meals.
Headache was exactly the same so I went back to the 3 meals (works better for me) but increased them to get more cals.
Changeless.

Tried only cardio - no headache.
Tried only strength - terrible headache.

What is this?
I did some research and read this could happen to weight lifter caused by fitful breathing.
I started to focus on my breathing and find I breathe very calm. Even the trainer told me I'm doing fine.
Just don't understand this. Maybe you have some improvement suggestions for me on this?
Because the trainer now thinks it is all caused by my way of eating. -.-

[greentea]

Snow White, are you saying you eat a total of 800 to 1000 calories a day? Because if you are exercising, especially weight training, I wonder if that's enough. Have you calculated your TDEE? There are lots of free online calculators, it would be interesting to see what they come up with.
I don't know what could be causing your headaches. One thought is that it could be caused by working out your traps, I often get headaches after working them out, but it's usually later in the day or the next day that it hits me.

[Snow White]

Have you calculated your TDEE?

Yes. Even by my doctor and my trainer. But since everybody and almost every online calculator tells me something different I just eat until I am full.

After another talk with the trainer about the headache he said it could also be acidosis (hope it's the right word?).