"Going All the Way?"

A place to get your questions answered from McDougall staff dietitian, Jeff Novick, MS, RDN.

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"Going All the Way?"

Postby PJK » Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:58 pm

Jeff:

I found your re-posting of an older article in the recent "Luke Perry" thread something of a bombshell.

If I read your "Going All the Way?" article correctly, there is *no* evidence that a meat-free diet is healthier than one that includes meat. Is that correct?

If so, and since this site - and Dr. McDougall's entire approach - claims to be evidence-based, how can this be ?

After all, Dr McDougall says a starched-based diet with no animal products is the healthiest. But as I understand it, you're saying it's not about the meat.

Does this mean one could re-introduce meat into the McDougall diet and, assuming one continues all the other healthy behaviors (no smoking, exercise, no excessive alcohol), likely be just as healthy?

As one who has been following the McDougall diet for nearly 3 years, believing it's the healthiest option, now I'm confused.
PJK
 
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Re: "Going All the Way?"

Postby JeffN » Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:24 pm

thanks for reading my posts.

If you have not done so, I would highly recommend that your take the time to read through my forum. Since the day I started it in 2008, 11 years ago, my position on this hasn't changed and have discussed this in many many threads and posts. If fact, if you go to my FB and find my first newsletter from August 1988, 31 years ago, the last page is a Q&A and it is basically the same as the article you just read.

You are correct. The McDougall Program does not recommend the consumption of animal products (not just “meat”). Their consumption is "one" of the leading contributors of lifestyle related death and disease.

However, if you have not seen this, you may want to take a look at this McDougall Newsletter from 2009.

https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2009nl/dec/nyr.htm

He rates the relative risk of foods and puts them in 4 categories. Category I are the worst foods that are called "dangerous foods," and not recommended to be consumed.

Category II are Feast Foods. They are broken up into 3 subcategories. Here they are.

IIA. These foods should be eaten rarely, if ever. Never eat them if you are trying to regain your lost health and appearance. These are very rich foods. They should be reserved for that special occasion, the feast. For most healthy people, these feasts should occur less than once a month. Anyone still trying to regain the best possible level of health should always avoid feasts. Be forewarned: for some sensitive people, like those with inflammatory arthritis, one feast can result in devastating pains lasting for weeks.

1. Range-fed beef without hormones or chemicals.
2. Organically grown poultry.
3. Shellfish.
4. Fresh fish.
5. Cream.
6. Whole milk.
7. Cheese.
8. Creamed cottage cheese.
9. Sour cream.
10. Ice Cream.
11. Yogurt.
12. Butter.
13. Eggs.
14. Vegetable oils (including olive oil, flaxseed oil, canola oil, coconut, and all "free" oils).

IIB. These modified feast foods should be eaten no more than once a week, and then only in small amounts. Anyone looking for improvement in their health should never eat them. These dairy and egg foods have been modified to lower the fat and cholesterol content. Removal of the fat reduces the level of fat-soluble chemical contaminants. However, they are still too high in animal protein, and contain no dietary fiber. Dairy products are the leading cause of food allergies, and eggs are often listed as the second most common food allergen.

1. Low-fat yogurt.
2. Low-fat milk (skim milk).
3. Buttermilk.
4. Low-fat (dry curd) cottage cheese.
5. Low-fat cheese (like mozzarella).
6. Kefir.
7. Sherbet (contains water, sugar, fruit juice, and often egg whites or low-fat dairy products).
8. Egg whites.


Category IV are Health-Supporting Foods

These foods are health-supporting. They allow your body to attain and maintain its naturally intended state of good health. They should account for the greatest share (at least 90 percent) of your calories if you are healthy and for all of them if you are still working to regain your health.

1. Whole grains, such as wheat, rice, barley, millet, rye, oats, corn, and popcorn
2. Milled grains, such as whole-wheat flour, corn meal, brown rice flour, rye flour, oatmeal, and bulgur.
3. Starchy vegetables, such as white potatoes, sweet potatoes, yams, and cassava.
4. Green and yellow vegetables, such as spinach, kale, zucchini, broccoli, cabbage, carrots, and onions.
5. Sprouted seeds and beans, such as alfalfa, radish, wheat, mung bean, and lentil.
6. Beans, peas, lentils, such as kidney beans, white beans, garbanzo beans, pinto beans, split peas, and red lentils. (These legumes are high-protein. They should be restricted to about one cup of cooked food on average daily and restricted even more for people with osteoporosis, kidney stones, and liver or kidney failure.)
7. Fresh fruits. (All edible varieties of these are suitable; however, most people should limit them to about three per day. They contain simple sugars that are largely protected by fiber. People trying to lose weight and people with high triglycerides should consider further limitation.)


For health reasons, I know of no evidence that 100% animal product free is necessary. The original diets shown to reverse heart disease (Ornish, Pritikin, Gould, Esselstyn), were not vegan. Much of the related research on a WFPB diet (Kempner, Shintani, CHIP, 7th Day Adventists), was not done on vegans.

However, we are not recommending them. The reason is, as discussed in other threads, there are several additional compelling reasons not to consume them, including animal welfare, environmental, contamination, the pleasure trap, etc.

Dr McDougall states this in the above newsletter. Towards the end, he says...

Ten Ideas We Have Improved On in Three Decades:

You should not be surprised to learn that we got it mostly right the first time -- more than 30 years ago. After six years of exhaustive study of the scientific research and almost every vegetarian cookbook published in the preceding eighty years we learned a lot from other people's hard work. During those six years between 1977 and 1983 when The McDougall Plan was being written, Mary also designed homey recipes, cooked the meals, and the McDougall family taste-tested each and every one of them. Here is what we can now add:

1) Animal foods -- be they derived from cow, pig, chicken, or fish muscles or the ovum of a bird or the lactation fluids of a mammal -- high-fat or low-fat -- are all so similar in their make-up that they must be considered together, and should be strictly avoided for health reasons. The destruction of the Earth due to the livestock industry makes avoiding animal foods imperative.

3) Fish are health-wise no better than any of the other muscle foods. Since the time The McDougall Plan was written nearly 90% of the world's large fish and other sea life have vanished. In order to restore our oceans, lakes, and streams people must understand the importance of not eating and further contributing to the depletion of these natural resources.


I don't think there is anything I have said in this forum that disagrees with the above. In fact, I am stricter then the above as I ask people to get at least 95% right, not 90% :)

In Health
Jeff
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Re: "Going All the Way?"

Postby PJK » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:15 am

Thanks, Jeff. That's super-helpful.

PS - Though I post only rarely, I read your discussion threads often. They're excellent. Thank you.
PJK
 
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Re: "Going All the Way?"

Postby JeffN » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:20 am

PJK wrote:Thanks, Jeff. That's super-helpful.

PS - Though I post only rarely, I read your discussion threads often. They're excellent. Thank you.


Thank you!

Its why I keep posting. :)

I hope the above clarifies the issue.

In Health
Jeff
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