No topic.

[bunsofaluminum]

Aww, thanks Heidi, but Jeff Novick deserves the credit there! I posted something awhile ago he had to delete and gently scold me and in that PM, he said:

“The McDougall program has 2 basic rules:

1. No animal products.
2. No oil.”

thanks for the credit!

However, let me put this in proper perspective and context.

What seems to have come out of our communication is that these 2 rules are the core definition and just following these two rules qualifies for following the McDougall program.

Unfortunately this is not true.

Why? Because one can easily follow these 2 rules and have a diet that is all, or mostly all, high fat vegan CRAP and that would not be healthy or McDougalling. The reason is, these 2 fundamental rules are only about what not to eat and do not cover the issue of what to eat. That is one if the problems with veganism in general. It only tells you what not to eat but gives no clarity on what to eat.

What to eat? Fortunately, that is just as simple and easy and is outlined in either the 10 points of the Regular Program or the 10 points of the McDougall MWL program. Or, as I have said here before.

"I eat a diet that is based predominately on a variety of unprocessed and/or minimally processed fruits, vegetables, starchy vegetables, roots/tuber, intact whole grains and legumes that is lower in calorie density, fat and saturated fat and contains little to no added salt, sugar or oils, and adapted to my unique personal situation."

So, if you are only concerned with making sure you have no oil and no animal products each day, congratulations. However, don't be fooled. That is not the Mcdougall program. What to eat is as much, if not more so, a fundamental part of the program as what not to eat.

I hope that helps clarify things

In Health
Jeff
.

Yeah, I don't let it slip that whole foods IS the basic of this plan. However, having the little reminder simplifies following for me. There's a list of 10 guidelines for MWL, e.g. which I know and have followed in the past. But right now, it's enough that I'm eating whole foods AND not consuming animal nor fatty foods. I've been eating whole foods my entire life. McDougall refines it for whole PLANT foods and no added oils. That's kinda why I like the simplified version.

thanks for the clarification, Jeff

[VegSeekingFit]

Aww, thanks Heidi, but Jeff Novick deserves the credit there! I posted something awhile ago he had to delete and gently scold me and in that PM, he said:

“The McDougall program has 2 basic rules:

1. No animal products.
2. No oil.”

thanks for the credit!

However, let me put this in proper perspective and context.

What seems to have come out of our communication is that these 2 rules are the core definition and just following these two rules qualifies for following the McDougall program.

Unfortunately this is not true.

Why? Because one can easily follow these 2 rules and have a diet that is all, or mostly all, high fat vegan CRAP and that would not be healthy or McDougalling. The reason is, these 2 fundamental rules are only about what not to eat and do not cover the issue of what to eat. That is one if the problems with veganism in general. It only tells you what not to eat but gives no clarity on what to eat.

What to eat? Fortunately, that is just as simple and easy and is outlined in either the 10 points of the Regular Program or the 10 points of the McDougall MWL program. Or, as I have said here before.

"I eat a diet that is based predominately on a variety of unprocessed and/or minimally processed fruits, vegetables, starchy vegetables, roots/tuber, intact whole grains and legumes that is lower in calorie density, fat and saturated fat and contains little to no added salt, sugar or oils, and adapted to my unique personal situation."

So, if you are only concerned with making sure you have no oil and no animal products each day, congratulations. However, don't be fooled. That is not the Mcdougall program. What to eat is as much, if not more so, a fundamental part of the program as what not to eat.

I hope that helps clarify things

In Health
Jeff





.

Hi,

Have to say Thank you, Jeff --- pretty phenomenal post!!!

I am thinking that Trinity (sorry)! is doing exactly what is within the verbiage of following McD.... But clarification is so helpful for all of us following!!!

I don't want to hijack Trinity journal page, but will just say the following:
1) I am happy that we are all different ... makes the world more enriched... (like let's not be all ticky tacky boxes that are all the same)
2) I am in ABSOLUTE awe of folks that can follow the verbiage where Jeff says what we should eat ... (seriously!!!) --- ok -- jealous even!!!
3) I am not person in 2)
4) Probably shocking to nobody, I am super happy to follow MWL 10 PT. Checklist... If you follow MWL Checklist for a few weeks, it becomes ingrained in your brain and if nothing else -- you become cognizant of changes to make....
5) In actuality, I would bet anyone that I could readily gain back 50 lbs. if I went with the verbiage... but, I would be super hard-pressed to do (or even a lesser amount with a bigger amount of food) that if following MWL checklist (so I keep following this)...

Hope that everyone has an excellent day (and sorry, Trinity that I posted this on your page...)...

Cheers,
Stephanie

[JeffN]

Hi,

Have to say Thank you, Jeff --- pretty phenomenal post!!!

I am thinking that Trinity (sorry)! is doing exactly what is within the verbiage of following McD.... But clarification is so helpful for all of us following!!!

I don't want to hijack Trinity journal page, but will just say the following:
1) I am happy that we are all different ... makes the world more enriched... (like let's not be all ticky tacky boxes that are all the same)
2) I am in ABSOLUTE awe of folks that can follow the verbiage where Jeff says what we should eat ... (seriously!!!) --- ok -- jealous even!!!
3) I am not person in 2)
4) Probably shocking to nobody, I am super happy to follow MWL 10 PT. Checklist... If you follow MWL Checklist for a few weeks, it becomes ingrained in your brain and if nothing else -- you become cognizant of changes to make....
5) In actuality, I would bet anyone that I could readily gain back 50 lbs. if I went with the verbiage... but, I would be super hard-pressed to do (or even a lesser amount with a bigger amount of food) that if following MWL checklist (so I keep following this)...

Hope that everyone has an excellent day (and sorry, Trinity that I posted this on your page...)...

Cheers,
Stephanie

Hi Stephanie.

There have been lots of discussions over the years in these forums on how to accurately describe this diet since WFPB doesn't do it, especially for when trying to communicate it to others. Some have said low fat, starch based, some have said, low fat whole food starch based, etc, etc. All of them fall short.

(Here is the discussion... https://www.drmcdougallforums.com/viewt ... 22&t=54877 )

Saying the McDougall Diet or the McDougall MWL or the McDougall MWL 10 point checklist doesn’t do it either as no one knows what that means but us.

My verbiage is just a way to describe the McDougall MWL diet and 10 point checklist that covers most all of it. . Not that anyone ever has to use it or post it etc. Thats why we have the 10 point checklist

However, if someone is following the McDougall MWL 10 Point Checklist, then they are following my verbiage.

In Health
Jeff

[VegSeekingFit]

Hi,

Have to say Thank you, Jeff --- pretty phenomenal post!!!

I am thinking that Trinity (sorry)! is doing exactly what is within the verbiage of following McD.... But clarification is so helpful for all of us following!!!

I don't want to hijack Trinity journal page, but will just say the following:
1) I am happy that we are all different ... makes the world more enriched... (like let's not be all ticky tacky boxes that are all the same)
2) I am in ABSOLUTE awe of folks that can follow the verbiage where Jeff says what we should eat ... (seriously!!!) --- ok -- jealous even!!!
3) I am not person in 2)
4) Probably shocking to nobody, I am super happy to follow MWL 10 PT. Checklist... If you follow MWL Checklist for a few weeks, it becomes ingrained in your brain and if nothing else -- you become cognizant of changes to make....
5) In actuality, I would bet anyone that I could readily gain back 50 lbs. if I went with the verbiage... but, I would be super hard-pressed to do (or even a lesser amount with a bigger amount of food) that if following MWL checklist (so I keep following this)...

Hope that everyone has an excellent day (and sorry, Trinity that I posted this on your page...)...

Cheers,
Stephanie

Hi Stephanie.

There have been lots of discussions over the years in these forums on how to accurately describe this diet since WFPB doesn't do it, especially for when trying to communicate it to others. Some have said low fat, starch based, some have said, low fat whole food starch based, etc, etc. All of them fall short.

(Here is the discussion... https://www.drmcdougallforums.com/viewt ... 22&t=54877 )

Saying the McDougall Diet or the McDougall MWL or the McDougall MWL 10 point checklist doesn’t do it either as no one knows what that means but us.

My verbiage is just a way to describe the McDougall MWL diet and 10 point checklist that covers most all of it. . Not that anyone ever has to use it or post it etc. Thats why we have the 10 point checklist

However, if someone is following the McDougall MWL 10 Point Checklist, then they are following my verbiage.

In Health
Jeff

Thank you, Jeff!! I totally believe MWL Checklist makes me feel better physically and mentally the best that I can be!! And, I appreciate this so much!!! I will continue to follow!!! Love this!! Glad that this aligns with the "verbiage" that was probably a bad word choice by me...

I am not effective as a poster... was just trying say that I can't limit stuff... better (for me) to just exclude... And, yes, I WILL EXCLUDE!!

Edited just to say YES!!! Thank you.... this helps me A TON!!! I am sorry that I can't follow if the words, but 100% do now understand that this is the same thing...

Sorry again, Trinity for posting on your page.... Hope that you are doing awesome !!!

Best,
Stephanie

[Ruff]

Hi Trinity, I haven't read all the pages...just this last one...because I have not been well. I am trying to catch up.

But it seems there has been some discussion about what to call this way of eating, and also about your super simple 2 point checklist.

Firstly. What to call this way of eating. I have (over the last 10 years) narrowed it down to "Food". Just that, food. I eat food. Before I started on this diet thing I just ate food. Not the SAD partly because I am not an American but also because I dont live near any fast food outlets. My diet contained lots of fruit, because I liked it, lots of garden veggies, and lots and lots of home baking! It also included eggs from our own chickens, meat etc etc. But I didnt call it anything except...dinner! Then I got overweight after my accident and spinal injury, and to cure this I started on Paleo, Zero carb, and all that jazz and all my diets had 'names'. Finally I stumbled over Forks over Knives in an airport and everything changed. I became plant based. Another name. I also became even more zealous! And boring! So I shut up.
So now I eat quite simply, fruit and veggies, whole grains, whole wheat flour, I love baking my own multi grain sourdough breads that take 2 days to make. I do have some nuts...I make a cashew salad dressing we all love...but then I am at my goal weight, and a runner. But we call it ....dinner. As to what I tell other people, I dont bother. I never used to in the old pre diet days and I dont now. I rarely eat out, and if I do, I do the best I can at the place I am at. If people ask me what I eat, I talk about my garden...as in oh we planted a new apple variety last year and it has great apples for stewing, or gosh...courgettes! we are having a courgette glut at the moment, so I am eating courgettes!...etc...etc...
The earthquakes taught me that. Do the best you can, in the circumstances you find yourself, with the resources avaialble to you at the time. If you are Jeff Novik or Dr McD then you do need names and descriptions. But I dont think we do.

Secondly. Your no animal products, no oil simple check list. If it works for you and helps you stick to the McD diet ...do it. If it helps to do a headstand before prepping your supper...do it. Do what works for you. MWL totally backfired for me, all those rules! 2 meals to prep every meal time.....I fell off the wagon totally after trying MWL. But Mary's Mini DID work for me. Why one and not the other? who knows? Do I even care? If it works, do it.But dont lose sight of the goal, which is to eat the healthiest diet on the planet...the McDougall diet.

This is just my 2 cents, I hope some of it helps. I think you are doing great.

Edited to add....if they REALLY want to know how to lose weight I tell them to come here...the McDougall website... and follow the free programme. If they are runners etc, I send them to Engine 2. If they are serious they will look it up for themselves. If they are not serious, I am not wasting my time.

[Lizzy_F]

Hi Trinity! Just popping in to say hello! What a great topic - how to describe what we are all doing / trying to do, and boil it all down. I love what everyone has had to say!!!

I remember during the 12-day program Dr. McDougall himself said a number of times "keep it simple! Don't eat animal products, and don't eat added oils/fats! That's it!" Of course context matters (he was most definitely not suggesting everyone start eating "vegan junk food" or anything even close!) What he WAS doing, that I personally appreciate, was reminding us all to keep it simple. I can personally manage to over-complicate absolutely ANYTHING!!! As one example, there was a person in our class who was well intentioned, and seemed well studied on ALL the plant based specialists! (Fuhrman, Goldhammer, Essylstyn, and many more that I can't even remember). He would say thiings like "I eat X% of my diet raw because XYZ person advocates that..." etc. At any rate, his rules for himself seemed to be such a mish mash of different ideas. When he would ask these complicated questions of Dr. M, that's when Dr. M would say things like 1. No animal products and 2. no oils.

So the spirit in which I received that simple advice, was to just stay focused on the basics in the context of whole, real food. Because he was definitely not recommending processed food. So I like the 2 point check list as a way to sooth my brain when I realize I am producing anxiety for myself by over-complicating everything.

I felt a bit overwhelmed by the "10-point check list" initially. What I have come to realize is that at any given point in time, there are one or two points of particular interest to me that I am working to improve. It makes it seem less overwhelming that way - to just pick one or two things that I want to work on at a time.

As Ruff so elequently described, it's great that there are a number of different ways people have figured out over the years to describe how they implement the McDougall way of eating. Because we all process information so differently in our brains.

Anyway, now I am rambling and hijacking!! I hope you and your family are having a nice long weekend!!

[Ruff]

Hi Trinity, just popping in to check if you are OK?

[VegSeekingFit]

Hey Trinity!!

Come back!!! Hope you are all good... I think all of us want to chat with you.... and you are such a positive peep... Miss you!! Who else could I rail about reading McKinty??? POST POST POST!!!

Best,
Stephanie