How can calorie density be helpful if calories aren't?

[dougtokyo]

In the article https://www.drmcdougall.com/newsletters ... -calories/ it lists multiple reasons why counting calories is not helpful.

But then it goes on to say that using calorie density is helpful.

However calorie density is calculated in calories per pound. So how can it be helpful if calories themselves are not?

Thanks,

doug

[pundit999]

Calories are difficult to count . And it is cumbersome to count them for long spells.

Calorie density is not calculated on a daily basis.
You just consume low density foods : starches grains veggies and fruit . No added oil or flour or dried foods or nuts tofu avocado etc

[dougtokyo]

If calories are difficult to count then so are calorie densities. In fact, calorie density changes depending on how you cook something (boil, steam, microwave, grill, air fry), but calories don't.

[VegSeekingFit]

In the article https://www.drmcdougall.com/newsletters ... -calories/ it lists multiple reasons why counting calories is not helpful.

But then it goes on to say that using calorie density is helpful.

However calorie density is calculated in calories per pound. So how can it be helpful if calories themselves are not?

Thanks,

doug

Hi Doug,

Not sure if you have seen JeffN's Calorie Density presentation below? I found this key to my understanding of how to manage weight. The beauty of it all --- is that you just learn the guidelines --- and then you do not need to count anything to be in control of managing your weight -- up / down / same. Just weigh yourself once a week to make sure you are going in direction you intend --- and adjust if needed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CdwWliv7Hg

Thinking that calorie counting isn't part of the McD program --- and we don't need to calculate Calorie Density either --- just to understand the principles and how to apply them to our own situation.

Check out all of this information as well if you haven't seen it. There is a chart in there with the calorie density by food type that is really helpful.
https://www.drmcdougallforums.com/viewt ... es#p500426

Wishing you the best,
Stephanie

[dougtokyo]

Hi Stephanie,

I'm doing ok with managing my weight, thanks to Dr. McDougall, Dr. Greger, Chef AJ and others. I even did an interview with Chef AJ recently about how I lost 140 lb and am successfully maintaining (https://lerner.net/the-fat-lazy-middle-aged-persons-guide-to-weight-loss/).

But I did have to count calories to get where I am. As you can see from comments added to my interview, other people had to as well. My issue with just calorie densities are (1) they don't take into account how much you eat and (2) calorie densities change depending on how a food item is prepared.

Nevertheless I am returning to some Dr. McDougall basics since I have my weight under control but want to eat less volume of foods. I snack too much. All healthy, very low calorie density foods, but they don't satisfy me, so I keep snacking to the point of feeling uncomfortable.

So I'm thinking of concentrating more on just starches and seeing how it goes. I have a suspicion, that I'd like to test, that maybe I can just eat all the whole starches (potatoes, rice) I want to satisfaction and not gain weight (even though I couldn't do that to lose weight), now that I am at a good weight and maintaining.

Thanks,

doug

p.s. It says the forums here are in the process of being updated. Is that happening soon? If not, I would be happy to volunteer to help. I can provide a nice up-to-date forums at no charge simply because I'm a fan of Dr. McDougall and he has always been so supportive.

[VegSeekingFit]

Hi Doug!

WOW!!! Look at you!!! Love it!!! AWESOME and Huge congrats!!! I only watched the first few minutes of your interview --- will circle back, but YOU GO!!!! (or, stay... you are there!!!)

I will be honest --- and I know that we all may be different. I have lost 50+ lbs. with McD MWL on JeffN Calorie Density guidelines and checklist... (no counting, measuring, weighing)...
https://www.drmcdougallforums.com/viewt ... 35#p578019

I now manage my weight up ... but I eat only MWL recommended foods --- so, never found need to count calories. I do not think too much about it.

Sometimes I cook things longer (dry them out) to manage up / increases calorie density (and vice versa). Mostly potato fries for me.... (but that may be only thing I dry out....)

Not sure if you have tried the plating of minimally processed starch / veg and / or fruit plate (50/50 or what ever % may work best for you)??? There are different % recommendations based on goals.

LOVE your story --- you are an inspiration!!!

Happy holidays!!! Keep going!!!
Stephanie

[dougtokyo]

Hi Stephanie,

Thanks very much! (We don't get email notifications of replies here, do we? I had to come back and check.)

I am severely acronym-challenged . What does MWL stand for?

This is sort of the route I took. I started with Ornish. I lost and stagnated and regained some. Then I discovered Dr. McDougall, which helped, but just ratios weren't working for me and I stagnated again. Then I discovered Michael Greger, which was very inspiring. But he thinls a "handful" of nuts every day is ok and it clearly wasn't. Then I discovered Chef AJ and learned more about calorie density. Between Dr. McDougall and Chef AJ and others I managed to find a combo that was working for me. But it involved also watching calories.

I'm thinking now that I have lost weight, and maintained for quite a while, that the only thing left for to me get under control is my endless, mindless snacking. It makes me feel uncomfortably full.

Which brings me back to Dr. McDougall again. The last few days I (1) cut out all that snacking of very low calorie density things like daikon and eggplants and (2) any time I really felt a craving to eat something I had some boiled potatoes or okayu (Japanese rice porridge). Even though this was more calories than I usually eat I have not gained weight the last few days and I felt very comfortable. The extra starch slammed a brake on my urge to snack.

So I'm going to continue this for a while and see what happens. But I also want to continue to track calories just so I'll know. That's why I've been investigating more about starches and exactly why they are so satiating compared to non-starchy veggies. I think it might have to do with the slower release of sugars into the bloodstream so you keep of the feeling of being full longer.

What I would like to check in the long run is concentrating on starches (without regard to volume) for maintaining weight loss as opposed to losing more weight. I do think that if you eat too many calories it can hurt with getting rid of excess fat. See my post here: https://lerner.net/with-dr-marc-hellerstein-de-novo-lipogenesis-its-just-arithmetic-and-how-this-fits-with-wfpb-healthy-diets/

doug

[Taggart]

From the food scientist who first brought out her research on calorie density in book form well over two decades ago, Barbara Rolls, Ph.D, a professor of nutritional sciences at Pennsylvania State University, she never mentioned "not" counting calories. In fact, quite the opposite, at least when one first begins using calorie density.

That's why I've been investigating more about starches and exactly why they are so satiating compared to non-starchy veggies. I think it might have to do with the slower release of sugars into the bloodstream so you keep of the feeling of being full longer.

doug

I don't know about that. Potatoes are supposed to raise the blood sugars considerably. This doesn't stop people from losing weight eating a potato diet. I know that from Chris Voight who ate 20 potatoes a day for 60 days in 2010 and lost 21 pounds. Then Andrew Taylor in Australia ate a potatoes and sweet potatoes only diet for the whole year in 2016 and lost 117 pounds of excess body weight. The last time I heard he was still eating potatoes/sweet potatoes as about 80% of his diet.

Perhaps it's because potatoes are just well....very satiating. That's what Barbara Holt Ph.D found in her research paper released in 1995 from the University of Sydney in Australia.

[dougtokyo]

Interesting, Taggart. Anyway, at least I have weight under control. I guess we each need to find a comfortable way of maintaining. I'll continue this "less low calorie, more starches" for just a bit and see if I can at least continue to not regain. My current weight is about 144 lb, the same as it was a year ago, and half of what it used to be when I was obese. It's interesting to know that the original author of calorie density recognized that calories do count. That's how I've used calorie density the last few years - as a means of locating the best foods to eat for weight control, even as I continue to log calories.

[JeffN]

In the article https://www.drmcdougall.com/newsletters ... -calories/ it lists multiple reasons why counting calories is not helpful.

But then it goes on to say that using calorie density is helpful.

However calorie density is calculated in calories per pound. So how can it be helpful if calories themselves are not?

Thanks,

doug

Greetings!

Congratulations on your success!

You linked to an article I wrote on calories and have raised some important questions.

However, just realize that the article you linked to is just one article out of almost 2000 I have written since 1988 on this and other related topics. I think sharing a few more with you will help put this in perspective.

A simple google search will show you there are many out there who claim calories don't count (for many different reasons). However, I have worked with many health care professionals over the years who also teach this perspective and as far as I know, most all agree, calories count & weight is a factor of energy balance. Here is a thread on the issue

Math, Obesity & You: Is a Calorie Still a Calorie?
https://www.drmcdougallforums.com/viewt ... 22&t=47836

And here is an article on "The Secret To Successful Weight Loss: Calories, Fat or Calorie Density?"
https://www.jeffnovick.com/post/the-sec ... ie-density

Here is an article on "A Common Sense Approach To Sound Nutrition" that includes the "Six Old School" Food Groups" which uses those groups as a means of calorie control.
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=29457&p=294838&#p294838

However, as you know there are important differences between 500 calories of potatoes, 500 calories of broccoli, 500 calories of almonds and 500 calories of almond oil. So, yes, calories do count as does energy balance, but there are other important known factors that impact how much of something we may consume, or over-consume.

Passive Overconsumption: The Unintended Intake of Excess Calories
https://www.drmcdougallforums.com/viewt ... 50#p454384


Calories alone only account for the calories. However, calorie density is an excellent surrogate marker for both calories and for many of these other known issues that can impact intake and that is why we prefer it.

Here are examples of ”Foods with similar calorie density, but other qualitative differences, and the effect on overconsumption”
https://www.drmcdougallforums.com/viewt ... 22&t=62161

It sounds like having successfully lost your weight, you are now trying to find what I call your sweet spot. These 2 links may help

Finding The Sweet Spot: Balancing Calorie Density, Nutrient Density & Satiety
https://www.drmcdougallforums.com/viewt ... 22&t=22432

Question on the 50-50 plate
https://www.drmcdougallforums.com/viewt ... 11&t=62238

Here is a collated collection of links and articles on the topic of calorie density. Some may be dead as I am in the process of updating and re-organizing them
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=48609

While you are at it...

Here is a link to my FAQ
https://www.drmcdougallforums.com/viewt ... 22&t=37233

here is a link to my forum
https://www.drmcdougallforums.com/viewforum.php?f=22

For an overview perspective that may help, here is a link on Calorie Density: The Studies & It's History
https://www.drmcdougallforums.com/viewt ... 22&t=46303

I recommend taking some time to review the links and my forum and if you haven't see it yet, the video linked above.

By following some simple principles (without having to count anything) you will find your sweet spot, and discover which foods and amounts provide the calories to manage your energy balance (gain, lose or maintain), while at the same time keep you satiated without having to go hungry and, at the same time, provide the nutrients you to need to maintain excellent health for life.

In Health
Jeff

[dougtokyo]

However, I have worked with many health care professionals over the years who also teach this perspective and as far as I know, most all agree, calories count & weight is a factor of energy balance.

Thanks very much for your reply. That's an impressive number of articles! I am going through them, but I am glad to hear you acknowledge that calories also count. I will post followup comments as I go through your articles.

doug

[dougtokyo]

JeffN, with regards to your article, "Math, Obesity & You: Is a Calorie Still a Calorie?" I found it interesting, and agree with 99% of what you wrote. Of course metabolism is different depending on lots of things. Not just current weight, but also age, sex, the amount of muscles you have, etc. So all of it is a matter of estimates, and different people need to adjust differently. And obviously 3,500 calories is a pound must be a rounded estimate just to make it seem easy to understand. So I agree with all that.

What I don't follow though is your conclusion in the article that therefore calorie density is more useful. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how that popped up all of a sudden.

Thanks.

[dougtokyo]

Jeff, with regards to your article "The Secret To Successful Weight Loss: Calories, Fat or Calorie Density?" again I am in agreement with 99% of what you wrote.

For my weight loss voyage (which took some years, but what's the hurry?) I found calorie density extremely useful as a guidepost for locating lower calorie, more satiating foods to eat.

Still, at the end of the day, the total calories do count. And so I found I had to be careful about total. So I log my calories each day. I don't particularly find that a nuisance. I like collecting data.

But as I mentioned I think I've been concentrating too much on very low calorie density veggies like eggplant and daikon, which are not satiating at all. Meanwhile there are potatoes which seem a great spot for satiation and low calorie density.

So what am I in disagreement with? I'm not sure. Maybe I'm just being argumentative.

I just find it hard to get away from tracking calories, especially since I found over the years of weight loss that if I didn't do that I didn't lose weight. But maybe now that I've lost weight, and maintained it for a a goodly amount of time, perhaps I can just stick to calorie density.

But where does that leave some foods like grilled Japanese sweet potatoes (yaki-imo) which I like occasionally, but are, in fact, to the right of the red line in calorie density because when grilled they lose enough water weight to put them over? See my blog post https://lerner.net/hannah-yams-japanese-sweet-potatoes-calorie-density-calories/ for example.

Because of things like that, how can you get away from calorie counting completely?

[dougtokyo]

JeffN - your article "Passive Overconsumption: The Unintended Intake of Excess Calories" is excellent and a good way to explain to people what foods to avoid. That's basically what I've done since returning completely to WFPB eating some years ago.

[dougtokyo]

Hi JeffN,

I found your article "Finding The Sweet Spot: Balancing Calorie Density, Nutrient Density & Satiety" the most interesting so far. It acknowledges that there are more than just two factors at work, and brings in satiety as a third. There are no numbers to measure satiety of a particular food though, are there?

Anyway, that's sort of where I am. I will say, though, that I have found when snacking on very low calorie density foods, like daikon and eggplant, that I can end up over the course of a day eating much more that 4 lb of food. It can go up to as much as 8 or 9 pounds! And I feel uncomfortable when I do that, but because I didn't take satiety into account I can't stop.

This past week I cut back on those foods and concentrated more on potatoes and okayu (Japanese rice gruel) which leaves me satisfied, but not uncomfortable.

Still, I feel like I have to track calories.

The questions you raised in your article about water content are interesting. Since water itself is not satiating for any amount of time, I have always wondered how they help make other foods, like wet whole starches, satiating.

Anyway, getting sleepy. I'll continue reading more tomorrow. Thanks!