Dr. McDougall's Online Discussion Board

Mark Shields wrote:Good Doc, before you pick out one study on Paleo where an intense exercise plan was followed, who knows what that stress from CrossFit would do, let's not forget other studies done on a Paleo Diet

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2724493/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19209185

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19604407

You did not get it. Having bunch of old sick people eating low caloric diet with more fruits and less saturated fat is going to result in lower cholesterol levels compared to people eating less fruit and more saturated fat and more calories.

You cannot really feed low-caloric diet for young people who are put to do physical exercise. The study posted by McDougall should tell us all about the long-term health potential of paleo-diet. Doesn't look too good: significant elevation of non-HDL cholesterol despite the heavy exercise regimen.

PrimitiveNutrition has covered the nonsense paleo-studies.

Primitive Nutrition 15: Define "Healthful"?, Part II
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDbguStz ... 893F2503B5

John McDougall wrote:I had no intention of being respectful to Jimmy Moore for several reasons and the most important being that the low-carb message is sickening millions of people. The public is confused. I am not here to win a popularity contest.

Besides this is how he invited me to be interviewed for his podcast:

01-03-2012 10:28 PM
Low-fat, high-carb diet guru Dr. John McDougall is back
Low-fat, high-carb diet guru Dr. John McDougall is back with a brand new book called STARCH SOLUTION: http://santarosa.towns.pressdemocrat.com...an-endures ~ He says, "Dr. Atkins died killed him." NOT! This guy is a public disgrace and too chicken to come on my podcast to talk about his blood sugar-spiking high-starch diet.

(the message appears to have been removed from his blog-http://www.livinlowcarbdiscussion.com/showthread.php?tid=7273)

Actually, Dr Mcdougall, the thread is still up with Moore making those derogatory remarks about you.

Here it is:
http://www.livinlowcarbdiscussion.com/s ... p?tid=7273

plants-and-carbs wrote:Oh, and I did not really care for Moore insisting he is healthy now...lol..where is the proof of that? Just because he is thinner does not mean he is healthy.

I just read a post of his from one month ago that says he weighs 226 (down from 306). Unless he is 6' 8" or taller he is still overweight. Here is an article on his cholesterol: http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/jimmy-moores-cholesterol-test-results-2008-2013/18256

Mark Shields wrote:Good Doc, before you pick out one study on Paleo where an intense exercise plan was followed, who knows what that stress from CrossFit would do, let's not forget other studies done on a Paleo Diet

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2724493/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19209185

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19604407

Hey, you know that two of your links, the first and third, are to the same published study, right? So you've got two very short-term studies (not three).

Lacey wrote:

plants-and-carbs wrote:Oh, and I did not really care for Moore insisting he is healthy now...lol..where is the proof of that? Just because he is thinner does not mean he is healthy.

I just read a post of his from one month ago that says he weighs 226 (down from 306). Unless he is 6' 8" or taller he is still overweight. Here is an article on his cholesterol: http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/jimmy-moores-cholesterol-test-results-2008-2013/18256

^A cardiologist commented that young people that often have zero calcium score can, nevertheless, show positive CIMT (carotid atherosclerosis).

RichardK wrote:

Lacey wrote:

plants-and-carbs wrote:Oh, and I did not really care for Moore insisting he is healthy now...lol..where is the proof of that? Just because he is thinner does not mean he is healthy.

I just read a post of his from one month ago that says he weighs 226 (down from 306). Unless he is 6' 8" or taller he is still overweight. Here is an article on his cholesterol: http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/jimmy-moores-cholesterol-test-results-2008-2013/18256

^A cardiologist commented that young people that often have zero calcium score can, nevertheless, show positive CIMT (carotid atherosclerosis).

I saw that and saw him urging Moore to have both of those tests done. Moore said he doesn't have insurance so cannot afford the tests. How can Moore be so confident that he is healthy? How can he be so certain that his lipid numbers are safe and he is not in danger of heart problems? I saw the sad video about his brother having an almost fatal heart attack at the age of 32 and then dying from his heart problems at the very young age of 41. Mind-boggling that Moore thinks his lipid numbers are good. I don't wish anyone ill so I really do hope for Moore's sake that he really is healthy. I just don't see how he can be though.

Thanks Dr. Mcdougall for going on this show and speaking out. I made up my mind years ago about all the benefits of your health promoting diet. Thanks for all you do!

FYI - there were quite a few interesting blog posts last year

http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2012/11/berberine-supplement-or-pharmaceutical_25.html

http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2012/11/hacking-jimmy-moores-latest-lipid-report.html

http://lowcarbdiabeticuk.blogspot.com/2012/11/jimmy-moore-6-carbsane-nil.html

http://thelowcarbdiabetic.blogspot.com/2012/12/jimmy-moore-carbsane-and-nazis.html

http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2012/12/jimkkkins-saga-of-jimmy-moore-and-david.html

I had not heard of Jimmy Moore until I saw this thread. I looked at the site linked for the podcast and it seems to be one extended, promoted anecdote of one person's experience, not a science-based approach to optimal nutrition for most people like the McDougall plan. (Most meaning people who don't have very uncommon conditions that would give them an adverse reaction to starches.)

I agree the science is very clear: a plant-strong, starch-based diet is the optimal diet for human beings. Paleo/low-carb seems to be a fad whose promoters do not come from science and medicine but from anecdotal experiences. To me, I can certainly see the dangers in promoting anecdotes over science and why Dr. McDougall is just over trying to respect people who make a living by making other people think it's ok and fashionable to be internally sick rather than healthy.

Lacey wrote:

plants-and-carbs wrote:Oh, and I did not really care for Moore insisting he is healthy now...lol..where is the proof of that? Just because he is thinner does not mean he is healthy.

I just read a post of his from one month ago that says he weighs 226 (down from 306). Unless he is 6' 8" or taller he is still overweight. Here is an article on his cholesterol: http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/jimmy-moores-cholesterol-test-results-2008-2013/18256

Looking at Moore's total cholesterol numbers are amazingly bad. He ranges from 298 to 419 over the past 5 years and is currently at 310. I don't know if he is on statin drugs but maybe he should be because his diet certainly isn't working to keep his TC under 150 as recommended by Dr. Esselstyn.

Moore, like Taubes seems to preach, all carbs are bad, replace those bad carbs with meat and some low carb veggies. When it is pointed out that there are good carbs (starches) and bad carbs (refined sugars) it doesn't really matter to guys like Moore and Taubes because they say any of those carbs turn into the enemy, sugar. In their view, there is no distinction between good carbs and bad carbs, they are just all carbs. Hence the livin the low carb mantra.

plants-and-carbs wrote:Actually, Dr Mcdougall, the thread is still up with Moore making those derogatory remarks about you.

Here it is:
http://www.livinlowcarbdiscussion.com/s ... p?tid=7273

Actually that thread is over a year old.

I think Jimmy Moore is sincere.

Look, his own brother died at the age of 41 from heart disease, diabetes, and morbid obesity.
Jimmy Moore is now age 41 himself and his cholesterol level is over 300.
If he really didn't believe in what he is saying, but still ate that way, then he is playing a risky game with death.

So I assume he believes what he promotes.
He may be completely wrong, but why would he eat that way if he wasn't sure he was right?

I wish him well in his personal health. He really needs it given his family history. Time will tell.
If he has a negative health event, his followers will learn a sad lesson.

Skip wrote:

Lacey wrote:

plants-and-carbs wrote:Oh, and I did not really care for Moore insisting he is healthy now...lol..where is the proof of that? Just because he is thinner does not mean he is healthy.

I just read a post of his from one month ago that says he weighs 226 (down from 306). Unless he is 6' 8" or taller he is still overweight. Here is an article on his cholesterol: http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/jimmy-moores-cholesterol-test-results-2008-2013/18256

Looking at Moore's total cholesterol numbers are amazingly bad. He ranges from 298 to 419 over the past 5 years and is currently at 310. I don't know if he is on statin drugs but maybe he should be because his diet certainly isn't working to keep his TC under 150 as recommended by Dr. Esselstyn.

But he's the thinnest he's ever been as an adult, so that must mean he's healthy right? It doesn't matter how you lose weight, even if you take up smoking to curb your appetite, if you lose weight apparently you're healthier, enough said.

This seems to be the Paleo thinking that goes with the Paleo diet. But eating a healthy diet is not so easy a caveman could do it.

I liked the interview and what Dr. McDougall was doing, remember they mentioned a recent prior conversation, heading Moore off every time he tried to take a turn to simple carbs because he knew what was coming. I like how Moore didn't argue against the starch based diet being best, but states he does better on the low carb diet. But how would he know which diet is best for him if he hasn't tried a starch based diet? He's in a good place right now with total cholesterol over 300? If he thinks he's in a good place now he should experience one year on the WFPB diet, now that's livin' La Vida Loca.

rijman wrote:

Skip wrote:

Lacey wrote:I just read a post of his from one month ago that says he weighs 226 (down from 306). Unless he is 6' 8" or taller he is still overweight. Here is an article on his cholesterol: http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/jimmy-moores-cholesterol-test-results-2008-2013/18256

Looking at Moore's total cholesterol numbers are amazingly bad. He ranges from 298 to 419 over the past 5 years and is currently at 310. I don't know if he is on statin drugs but maybe he should be because his diet certainly isn't working to keep his TC under 150 as recommended by Dr. Esselstyn.

But he's the thinnest he's ever been as an adult, so that must mean he's healthy right? It doesn't matter how you lose weight, even if you take up smoking to curb your appetite, if you lose weight apparently you're healthier, enough said.

This seems to be the Paleo thinking that goes with the Paleo diet. But eating a healthy diet is not so easy a caveman could do it.

I liked the interview and what Dr. McDougall was doing, remember they mentioned a recent prior conversation, heading Moore off every time he tried to take a turn to simple carbs because he knew what was coming. I like how Moore didn't argue against the starch based diet being best, but states he does better on the low carb diet. But how would he know which diet is best for him if he hasn't tried a starch based diet? He's in a good place right now with total cholesterol over 300? If he thinks he's in a good place now he should experience one year on the WFPB diet, now that's livin' La Vida Loca.

Yeah, and for the record, Jimmy Moore likes to claim that he IS an expert in low fat/high carb eating. In the interview he did with Ornish, he claimed that he ate low fat for about a year and a half (I could be a little off there) and that it made him feel horrible all the time. He says he did lose a ton of weight, but that it made him extremely moody and anxious and a cranky SOB and that finding Atkins was like the Holy grail for him.... That sounds like the classic case of UNDER-eating. He probably tried living on salads and small portions of rice and a potato or 2 here and there....no wonder he felt like crap! His stories just don't add up. And, obviously, Low carb did not solve anything for him since he's been up and down for a decade now....nothing he says adds up.

I agree he is sincere. He really WANTS to believe the stuff he spouts as he knows his family history is replete with disaster. I think he is PRAYING that his method works to stave off his ugly family history. I actually hope it does work but I fear it won't. I think he honestly doesn't think he could successfully follow our diet and he HAS to find an alternative.
f1jim

bbq wrote:FYI - there were quite a few interesting blog posts last year

http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2012/11/berberine-supplement-or-pharmaceutical_25.html

http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2012/11/hacking-jimmy-moores-latest-lipid-report.html

http://lowcarbdiabeticuk.blogspot.com/2012/11/jimmy-moore-6-carbsane-nil.html

http://thelowcarbdiabetic.blogspot.com/2012/12/jimmy-moore-carbsane-and-nazis.html

http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2012/12/jimkkkins-saga-of-jimmy-moore-and-david.html

Jimmy's (latest) LDL-C is alone 285.

Boy....these anti-darwinist just continue keeping their head in the sand. While there are several biomarkers in the lipid fraction that are linked to heart disease, the causal nature of these links has only been established in regards to the good o'le LDL-C.

Causal relevance of blood lipid fractions in the development of carotid atherosclerosis: Mendelian randomization analysis.

"Our findings confirm a causal relationship between low-density lipoprotein cholesterol and CIMT but not with HDL-C and TGs. At present, the suitability of CIMT as a surrogate marker in trials of cardiovascular therapies targeting HDL-C and TGs is questionable and requires further study".

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23275344

People carrying a mutated variant of the apolipoprotein A1 in HDL live long and have very little heart disease, this despite the carriers of this mutation show low levels of HDL-C and high triglycerides.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ApoA-1_Milano