Sorry for the delay in getting back to this but did want to respond as I think you did raise some important issues that I believe would benefit from my responses.
Letha.. wrote:You make it sound as if using the term “McDougall Program” is somehow inappropriate.
Not at all. We just have to understand that there is no one "cookie cutter" version of the program that is cast in stone that applies to everyone.
Letha.. wrote:I find this strange since Dr. McDougall has a book are titled, “The McDougall Program: 12 Days to Dynamic Health"
Correct. But that is only one of his books. He has also authored books titled The Maximum Weight Loss Program, The McDougall Plan, The McDougall Program for a Healthy Heart, The McDougall Program for Women, etc.
It is also important to know that mainstream books are written for the general public and for 10's of 1000's of people, if not (hopefully) millions of them. There is no way any such book could ever lay out a program that would be appropriate for everyone in every situation.
Letha.. wrote: To be fair Dr. McDougall does write this on page 173 of the above mentioned book,
“A few people do find that significant loss of weight while they’re on a healthy diet is a very slow process. If you’re sixty or seventy pounds overweight and you’re losing only a pound or so a week, you may be impatient as well as discouraged. In that case, you should concentrate on eating the starches having the lowest calorie yields until your weight has dropped appreciably. Use potatoes, rice, squash, and corn as the starch center for your meals. Stay away from bread.”
According to Dr. McDougall’s books you can achieve weight loss, lowered cholesterol, lower triglycerides, lower blood pressure, & lower blood sugar by following the 12 Day Program that includes all of the foods on his list of approved packaged foods. He only suggests that you adhere to the MWL guidelines if you feel impatient or discouraged by the slow speed of your weight loss.
I appreciate your fairness
However, this is in total agreement with my view.
The only difference is that 10 and 20 years ago when this book was written, weight was not the issue it is today. While it may be hard to believe, there was a point where only a few of the patients I saw had weight issues.
However, we became an overweight nation in the early 1990's and in 2009 and we became an obese nation with the number of Americans with significant weight issues increasing quickly and dramatically. Almost 70% of Americans are overweight with about 34% of them being obese.
Now, most all the patients I see not only have a weight issue, they have a serious amount of weight to lose and/or other significant health issues or have struggled with the program for a long time.
Therefore, IMH(P&P)O, these people would be better off adhering to the guidelines and principles of the MWL so they can see faster results and not be discouraged, as they do have (as Dr McDougall said in your quote) a "significant" amount of weight to lose, or other health issue, or are tired of not seeing results.
I have found that the single biggest motivator for most people is quick results and that this is especially true for people with weight issues where the results are also so visible to them and to the world.
Letha.. wrote:On the other hand, you recommend that everyone basically follow the MWL guidelines unless they have met all of their health goals. I personally feel this is a significant difference between the two of you that could lead to confusion for folks attempting to follow the program.
While I understand your confusion, let me clarify, as I think I can see where the misunderstanding is coming from.
First, it is a choice that each individual has on which program they do and many find some mix of both to be best.
I do not recommend the MWL for everyone, only those who have significant weight and/or health issues or have struggled for a long time without reaching their goals. As I always say here, and said in this very thread earlier...
"If someone is successful and the program is working for them
however they are defining it, then I only wish them the best and continued success."
However, and again, as the majority of the people who I see, or come to the program, or post questions for me, do have significant wieght and/or health issues, and/or have not been successful, then for most of them, I do recommend the MWL program.
So it easy to see how this may appear that I recommend it to everyone, but that is not the case nor has it ever been.
Understanding this issue will go along way in helping to clear up most any other of any confusion that exists.
Letha.. wrote:Your opinion based on your experience is clear and easy to understand. But it appears to me to be different from Dr. McDougall’s opinion based on his experience.
They are actually very similar as I clarified above. There are some areas we disagree, but this is not one of them.
Remember, his books are written to the general public, are not a cookie cutter for everyone, the times have changed and most of my responses here are to people with significant weight and/or health issues.
And, as you quoted, his other comments, are to those who have significant health issues or significant amounts of weight to loss. This is the category of people that I deal mostly with.
Letha.. wrote:Why do I think this is important? Because I think your recommendations can have the effect of causing people to put a bowl of cheerios with rice milk and a spoonful of white sugar in the same category as a Burger King Whopper and French Fries.
I understand your position and your concern over the impact of my recommendations, but disagree.
What I try to do is to help people understand the issues with both of these, often in more detail, and often in how it applies to their own specific health challenges.
Cheerios are a whole grain cereal, though not an intact whole grain. As a result of the processing, they are very calorie dense and have added salt. Rice milk is liquid calories which adds calories for virtually no satiety. Therefore, this would not be the best choice for someone who is trying to lose weight, or for someone who is insulin resistant. However, for those who aren't, it would be an acceptable choice, though not an ideal one.
A Whopper is not only extremely calorie dense, much more so then the Cheerios, but also very high in fat, saturated fat, cholesterol, white flour, salt, etc and would not be recommended for anyone at anytime. French fries are fried, usually in some form of a hydrogenated oil and so can also contain trans fats, are extremely high in calorie density and usually loaded with salt. Again, not a food i would recommend for anyone, ever.
Quite a difference, if you ask me.
Now, to be fair, on the other hand, are you implying that a bowl of cheerios with rice milk and a spoonful of white sugar is in the same category as a baked sweet potato and steamed broccoli?
I hope not.
Letha.. wrote:Cheerios with rice milk and a spoonful of sugar would be in compliance with Dr. McDougall’s program as outlined in his books
It would not be in compliance with the MWL program.
Letha.. wrote:even if it’s not in line with the dietary recommendations that you give to people on this forum.
Again, while I appreciate your input and perspective, in fairness, these comments do not accurately represent my recommendations in this forum (or anywhere else) or to everyone, but only to those who a) have serious health problems, b) have a significant amount of weight to lose and/or are insulin resistant. However, as I have said, these are the majority of the people I do see.
Letha.. wrote:In general I think your advice is sound. I personally see it as advanced McDougalling. Something that can be attempted after you’ve mastered regular McDougalling.
Well thanks. )
Again, I see my recommendations as appropriate for those who have a significant amount of weight to lose and/or other significant health issues.
Letha.. wrote:I think there is value in discussion with people who disagree with you. It appears that you disagree with Dr. McDougall’s recommendations in several areas. That’s fine with me. But I think that for individuals attempting to change their dietary habits it can be confusing to see you give advice that is different than Dr. McDougall’s.
I saved this for last for a reason.
There are areas we disagree, but they are minor in relation to the bigger picture of the program, and are not the ones mentioned above. Some people have raised them in other threads and when appropriate, we have discussed them.
However, I am glad you raised this point here and now as it is an important issue.
There are a few issues we disagree on.
However, it is important to realize that I am not a salesperson for the McDougall Program but a health professional dedicated to the science of health and nutrition and the well-being of my patients and that of the public. My perspective and my interpretation of the science happens to align closely with that of Dr McDougall's. Therefore, I work for Dr McDougall as a freelance consultant/contract worker and I am only paid for the services I render (ie, lectures) and I am under no obligation to "agree" with him on anything.
He hires me to give "my" lectures on the topics I choose and in spite of the fact that we do disagree on some minor issues. He has never once asked me to change any of my lectures which discuss these differences, or any of the content in them, nor has he ever wanted to edit and/or censor any part of any one of my talks. In fact, we feel it adds to the scientific discourse of the program.
And, to be honest, in him doing this, he exhibits extreme professionalism and integrity, especially in this field, and is a rare bird (or should I say potato).
I hold multiple contracts and though the one with Dr McDougall represents only a small percentage of the total, it is the one I enjoy the most.
For the record, the time, energy and effort I put in at these forums is done on my own as a volunteer and was started at my own request.
This is all also important because in the world of health, so many health professionals have sold out their integrity for a few dollars to work for big companies and industries, and/or to sell health products and/or to sell supplements and compromise their message and integrity for a paycheck.
In Health
Jeff