Dr. McDougall's Online Discussion Board

I think vegans in general are more health conscious than most people and tend to eat a better diet. I was health conscious before I switched my diet but now I am 100 times more health conscious. I’ve also heard anecdotal evidence from people whose, sister in law or friend or co-worker ended up having serious health problems from a vegan diet. They are the kind of stories where you never quite get the details.

I think the real problem is that in the United States, the people who actually eat a 90% or more plant based diet, is a very small percentage. It’s hard to get good data and it’s even harder to find real people who eat the way we do. I know two people, my wife and my co-worker and they only started doing it because I did.

After one year of eating this way, I’m coming down from the euphoria of finding a better healthier way to eat and I’m starting to worry about deficiencies, iodine, protein, calcium, omega 3s…it’s making me crazy. If a huge portion of people ate a plant based diet it would be easy to get the answers. I’ll never go back to the SAD but I’ll admit it’s a little frustrating to be in such a small minority. On the other hand it gives me more respect for people like Dr McDougall who have been fighting this fight for decades. I realize that people are moving toward plant based diets more than ever in this present day.

It’s worth the effort, but it is not that easy to change when we’ve heard our whole lives, “Beef it’s what for dinner”, “Got milk?” and the most damaging of all statements “Where do you get your protein if don’t eat meat?!?”

JeffN wrote:

Jaggu wrote:I'm further confused by reading your above article.

I recommend a healthy diet, which someone can follow & be a vegan/vegetarian but being a vegan/ vegetarian is not 100% required nor have I ever inferred or said otherwise.

Most vegan/vegetarians follow unhealthy diets & so to not see a benefit is not a surprise.

In Health,
Jeff

OK to make things simple and not get bogged down by vegan/vegetarian philosophies. Let's say one is following healthy diet, doesn't the summary of the article suggest that it may statistically add 2 to 2.5 yrs to your life?

So far the understanding was "healthy diet" will prevent cancer, heart disease, arthritis, osteoporosis and whole host of other disease.

I thought Dr McD was in sync with Dr Campbell that meat, diary and oil products were responsible for the disease of the affluence. If that's case, I'm trying to digest as to why your article in summary says, healthy diet will confer 2-2.5 yrs of additional life?

If healthy diet did indeed prevented disease of affluence, that would be much more than 2-2.5 yrs of additional life. wouldn't it?

Jaggu,
I think the point is that we don't know if they ate a healthy diet. We don't know what they ate. The likelihood is that they did not (or most or many did not) eat a healthy diet. At least that's what I think Jeff has said in several different ways here and in his newsletter article. And the little bit I listened to of the Dr. Gregor link (which started this thread) makes clear that modern veg*ns eat a suboptimal diet. So your persistance in asking a question assuming it was a healthy diet has me confused.

Carroll wrote:

JeffN wrote:My comment is based on my 35 years of being around the "veg" movement both personally and professionally and remains.

So you really think most vegans eat less healthy than 'regular' eaters?

No. I didn't say that. I made no comparisons between the two. However, I think many (if not most) people, including the veg community, eat unhealthy diets.

If the studies show there is no real mortality or morbidity benefit amongst the vegans when compared to typical Americans, than the conclusion is that it may not be any better or any worse then the typical American diet.

If you compare A to B on health benefit and A turns out no better than B, than you cant say A is better than B.

When surveyed most Americans say they eat "healthy" & make "healthy" choices. Yet when studied about actual consumption, only around 3% follow a "healthy" lifestyle.

I think part of the problem is that there is a very poor understanding of what a truly healthy diet it and there is just a huge void between what people think is healthy & what may truly be healthy

When I look at what is consumed at veg conferences, veg gatherings and being sold at most vegetarian/vegan restaurant or stores, I am not surprised. Same when I look at Industry sales figures.

There are some fairly well done studies on vegans and when you look at what they eat & their health stats, there are some benefits/advantages but there are also some concerns.

I am on a professional list of vegetarian/vegan RDs and there was a recent discussion on what defines "healthy" and many (if not most everyone) who chimed in defended all the unhealthy high fat high sodium highly processed meat substitutes & vegan junk food. And these were the professionals.

I spoke at a vegan conference recently and the vegan dessert (which everyone loved and indulged in) had 2x that calories & 3x the saturated fat of a piece of chicken per serving. And many of them ate several servings.

If many (if not most) vegans ate healthy, then the benefit would clearly show up in the studies. It would be more than self evident.

A key point, again, as i have tried to clarify, "vegan" &/or "vegetarian is a philosophy and not a set of optimal dietary guidelines. Applying one to the other will only lead to confusion. This is why published studies that use the term "vegan" are misleading. They have to define what they mean by "vegan."

In Health
Jeff

[quote="JeffN]
When surveyed most Americans say they eat "healthy" & make "healthy" choices. Yet when studied about actual consumption, only around 3% follow a "healthy" lifestyle.
Jeff[/quote]

This statement is so true. Everybody I know thinks that they eat a very healthy diet. Any conversation about vegetarianism always elicits "I don't eat very much meat at all". The reality is they probably eat a lot of meat. It's actually almost comical how people always defend their diet. People do the same thing when it comes to TV watching, "I don't watch much TV","I don't watch TV"...I personally watch a fair amount of TV and I enjoy it. I also eat a pretty good diet that probably seems like an extreme health nuts diet to the average person in this country. I know I can improve and that's why I'm on this forum.

PS-Can someone tell me how to do the quote thing correctly?

HealthFreak wrote:PS-Can someone tell me how to do the quote thing correctly?

Hit the quote button on the top right corner. Edit the comment until only the portion of the quote you want is left. Make sure you have left the [quote] at both beginning and end. Add what you would like to say, preview and submit.

Donna

Jeff's comment that most vegans/vegetarians don't eat healthy rings true to me. Most that I know don't McD and there is a ton of fat in their diets. But that's just my experience.

However, when looking at a lot of (not all) vegan/vegetarian restaurant menus, I cannot find a thing I would eat without altering the dish.

Donna

Good afternoon,

What if we took all those unhealthy Vegetarians and Vegans and without changing the food they eat, simply restricted it. I'm wondering more and more if Calorie Restriction is the main factor straight down the line.

Going back to Louigi Cornaro who even documented his journey from illness to well being in the 1500s ate a restricted diet, including little meat, yolks, vegetable soup, bread and wine.

Best wishes,
Xeta

Carroll wrote:It is absolutely ludicrous to base what MOST people eat on what is being sold at conferences..

The comment about veg conferences/food sales/restaurants is just an addendum and not my sole experience nor what I am basing my comments on.

My comments are based on what I see personally and professionally both as an observation and from clinical experience and from detailed dietary analysis of working with individuals for more than 20 years. Even in this forum, people have commented that entering the food in the CRON-O_Meter and/or tracking what they eat has been an eye-opening experience.

Carroll wrote:people have their minds made up that the typical vegan is a lying idiot (either they don't know the meaning of healthy or they just lie about what they are eating), and that's why they run into health problems.

I don't see anyone saying that. I see people trying to understand an important issue and trying to get to the bottom of it.

I do not see anyone calling anyone else a "liar". However, many well done controlled studies have shown that people do not accurately report what they are eating, or can, as most do not know what is in the food and/or products they are consuming. This is even true when they are professionals in the field who haven been trained to do so. They average discrepancy is 30%, ranging from 20-50%. The professionals were off 47%.

N Engl J Med. 1993 May 20;328(20):1495; Actual versus self-reported intake and exercise in obesity.

While some may be "mis" reporting intentionally, no one is saying this is ALL due to lying, but it may just due to misinformation and/or misunderstanding of what is in food. Plus there are problems in what we are told is in food (recipes, menus, labels, etc) which also have inaccuracies.

Nutr Rev. 1993 Oct;51(10):296-300.Diet and exercise in obese subjects: self-report versus controlled measurements.

Metabolism. 1995 Feb;44(2 Suppl 2):18-22. Limitations in the assessment of dietary energy intake by self-report.

J Am Diet Assoc. 2003 Oct;103(10):1306-13. Selective underreporting of energy intake in women: magnitude, determinants, and effect of training.

Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 1997 Jul;21(7):567-73. Determinants and nature of dietary underreporting in a free-living population: the Fleurbaix Laventie Ville Santé (FLVS) Study.

Public Health Nutr. 2002 Oct;5(5):683-90. Severe underreporting of energy intake in normal weight subjects: use of an appropriate standard and relation to restrained eating.

So, if the studies that are done are showing unhealthy diets, and you disagree with my professional and personal experience, and you also feel that what is evident at conferences, food stores and restaurants does not accurately represent what this said community consumes, then what method do you recommend for evaluating their intake?

In Health
Jeff

Carroll wrote:[yeah, cause all us vegans only eat out, right?

Carroll -

That's not what I said at all.

If you are arguing for healthier than SAD eaters, then I would agree with you. If it comes to healthy, I don't agree. I think most vegan/vegetarian still have room for big imporvement in their eating habits. Again this is from my experiences. Yours may be different.

Why so hostile?

Donna

My husband belongs to a group of activists for animals. Most of them are vegan which I support and admire. However All of them (not many or most) have HORRIBLE diets. They eat junk food, high fat faux meats and lots of oil in every meal. They are not vegan at this point in their lives for the health benefit. I realize this is not a national sample or a scientific study but I have regularly watched the eating habits of these young people - about 20 of them - for the last 5 years and if they are at all representative then there you have it. One positive thought is that if they decide to get healthy it wouldn't be such a leap because they have already given up meat and dairy.
Riva

Carroll wrote: I'm recommending not being prejudiced about 'this said community'.

I am not prejudiced. I am trying to work with & help "this said community." I just spent 4 days speaking to them & will do so next weekend and 4 days next month & do this regularly through out the year. This is all "pro bono"

Carroll wrote: from some study because vegans live on potato chips, French fries, and ketchup. That is all.

It is not just "some" study but several fairly well done studies & several national surveys over several years that are showing the same thing.

Also, no where did I say they live on potato chips, french fries, & ketchup. However, it seems there are other aspects/issues of their lifestyle that is compromising their health or not contributing to increased health.

It seems to me that one of the main messages I heard this past 4 days at NAVS from Dr Greger, Dr Esselstyne, Dr Campbell, & many other key speakers was pretty much the same as what I am saying.

To me, this is a very important issue because the end result will be the identification of those key dietary & lifestyle issues that do make a difference. Then this "said community" can move forward with confidence about itself with knowledge that is based in good science & move away from possibly outdated dogma.

In Health
Jeff

I know that as a long time vegetarian and on and off vegan, (currently on), I always described my diet as very healthy. Well my 3 main meals were very healthy, but my regular and excessive snacks of vegan cookies, or chips definitely were not healthy! I even told my doctor that I followed a very healthy diet! I have always been slim and exercised, but until I committed to the Mcdougal program, I was certainly eating way too many unhealthy things, and so was my husband. Our adult children, who are vegetarian, follow a worse diet than we did, because they have filled it up with dairy and faux meat products. So I think that Jeff's research is likely correct. I don't know anyone who follows a Mcdougall type of diet.

Riva wrote:

All of them (not many or most) have HORRIBLE diets. They eat junk food, high fat faux meats and lots of oil in every meal. They are not vegan at this point in their lives for the health benefit.

That's an interesting point. I mean, I am of course aware people follow their path for different reasons. So these non-healthy Vegans shouldn't even be included. Perhaps these studies are wrong because there are divisions within the Vegan/Vegatarian communities. There's no point including a Vegan fraction that isn't concerned with health, in a health study. What about all the people who don't attend meetings, go on line or sign up for studies?