Dr. McDougall's Online Discussion Board

Hi Jeff,
I graduated in '89 with a BS in nutrition, and we were taught about complete proteins. I didn't work in the nutrition field, and didn't learn the truth about this until I read Dr McDougall's book. So I'm wondering if you know when it came out that this wasn't the truth? It's certainly a concept that just won't seem to die!

momof4 wrote:Hi Jeff,
I graduated in '89 with a BS in nutrition, and we were taught about complete proteins. I didn't work in the nutrition field, and didn't learn the truth about this until I read Dr McDougall's book. So I'm wondering if you know when it came out that this wasn't the truth? It's certainly a concept that just won't seem to die!

Hi,

When I look though the published medical and scientific literature, I do not find much support for it at all at anytime. However, if you look at what is being taught in medical and even dietetic school, it is still being taught even today.

I beleive it became popular as a result of the 1st edition of Diet For A Small Planet by Frances Moore Lappe. However, she retracted the myth in her 10 year anniversary edition around 1982.

In addition, the ADA's position paper on vegetarian diets in 1987 stated it was not necessary to combine proteins.

But, like you said, its a concept that just won't die.

In Health
Jeff

That really makes me wonder why won't it end? Why do they still teach it to people in school to become health professionals? Don't they know that it is a myth? And if so, why would they want to teach a myth? (Does the meat/dairy industry have a say in what's taught?) If they don't know that it's a myth, why not??

Quiet Heather wrote:That really makes me wonder why won't it end? [...] Don't they know that it is a myth?

A myth is a story that might or might not have had some mistaken connection to reality at some point but now survives on its own because "everyone knows it is true."

In a society not dedicated to reason, "confirmation" of a myth comes from myth-bearers asking for confirmation from others who already believe the myth. The others nod and say, "Of course it is true." Myth "confirmed."

Rational individuals can fight a myth in only one way: Repeatedly, over a course of years, taking these steps:
1. Insistently asking the myth-bearers what proof they have for the myth, that is, what evidence they have that is based, not on confirmation from others, but on actual experimental or other sense-perceptible evidence.
2. In every instance of its appearance, identifying the myth for being what it is: a myth, that is, a story that now has no tie to reality.

Myths die hard. Killing them can take more than a generation. The proponents have to die out and be replaced by those who reject the myth.

Jeff, I read Diet for a Small Planet in the early 70's and remember following the advice to 'balance proteins' that Frances Moore Lappe promoted at that time. The more important message from her book though, to me, was the idea that earth's resources were limited and what we eat has an impact--this is still very much true today, if not more so.

It seems to me though that the protein-balancing idea came originally from an earlier writer, Adele Davis, who had a very large influence in the 50's and 60's, and who promoted large amounts of protein as healthful. I seem to remember a book of hers with a chart of protein foods that balance each other--but I don't have a reference for this. Does anyone know if this is true?

I don't think FMLappe invented this idea, I think she was continuing it. I know she regrets that part of her work now.
--Anna

Burgess wrote:In a society not dedicated to reason, "confirmation" of a myth comes from myth-bearers asking for confirmation from others who already believe the myth. The others nod and say, "Of course it is true." Myth "confirmed."

Hmmm...kinda makes you wonder what other myths doctors and other healthcare workers are taught in school. Scary.

Quiet Heather wrote: [...] makes you wonder what other myths doctors and other healthcare workers are taught in school. Scary.

Yes, but every subculture and subsociety has myths, so far as I can tell. Among "vegans" I have met, there are myths that never seem to die. Two examples are:

1. As long as we eat only foods made from plants--never mind what forms--we are getting everything we need, without harm, and we will be healthy.

2. If a substance is "natural," it is good for you.

So true, Burgess. LOL

Recently I got involved in an arguement with a woman who said veganism was bad for you and she quoted alot of Westen Price stuff and also about combining proteins. I was trying to find info on the combining and I found plenty of places saying it was a myth and such, but I couldn't find a single scientific study backing the info I read. Would you happen to have any links to actual studies? I am prefectly content with the way I eat and am not worried that I am not meeting my protein needs, but once I started searching it bugged me that I couldn't find it.

Whats funny though is I googled the references listed on the Price Foundation page on how unhealthy veganism is and every single study I read actually showed vegan/vegetarianism as healthier.

Quiver0f10 wrote:Recently I got involved in an arguement with a woman who said veganism was bad for you and she quoted alot of Westen Price stuff and also about combining proteins. I was trying to find info on the combining and I found plenty of places saying it was a myth and such, but I couldn't find a single scientific study backing the info I read. Would you happen to have any links to actual studies? I am prefectly content with the way I eat and am not worried that I am not meeting my protein needs, but once I started searching it bugged me that I couldn't find it.

Whats funny though is I googled the references listed on the Price Foundation page on how unhealthy veganism is and every single study I read actually showed vegan/vegetarianism as healthier.

Greetings,

My first recommendation is not to argue these topics with other people.

However, we do not need a scientific study, even though there are many of them. Even the current position paper on Veg diets by the ADA, acknoweldges this and has since 1987. Dr McDougall posted some recent debates on this issue where the worlds leading expert in amino acid and protein nutrition agreed with him.

But, that will not prove anything to someone in an argument.

All anyone has to do though is go to the USDA database and input any vegetables food and you will see all the amino acids listed.

They are all there. What more "proof" does anyone need?

In Health
Jeff

JeffN wrote:

Quiver0f10 wrote:Recently I got involved in an arguement with a woman who said veganism was bad for you and she quoted alot of Westen Price stuff and also about combining proteins. I was trying to find info on the combining and I found plenty of places saying it was a myth and such, but I couldn't find a single scientific study backing the info I read. Would you happen to have any links to actual studies? I am prefectly content with the way I eat and am not worried that I am not meeting my protein needs, but once I started searching it bugged me that I couldn't find it.

Whats funny though is I googled the references listed on the Price Foundation page on how unhealthy veganism is and every single study I read actually showed vegan/vegetarianism as healthier.

Greetings,

My first recommendation is not to argue these topics with other people.

I knew better too! LOL Thanks

Quiver0f10 wrote:R
Whats funny though is I googled the references listed on the Price Foundation page on how unhealthy veganism is and every single study I read actually showed vegan/vegetarianism as healthier.

That is so funny. I've had fun looking up the references on other WAPF articles and finding that the studies they site don't back up the claims in the article. The "best" one was the study they sited to back up the claim that children on low fat diets don't develop normally. The study was one where they show that children who drink the most fruit juice don't develop as well as the children who drink the least juice. I guess the children drinking the most juice technically had less fat in their diet as a percentage of calories since juice has no fat, but really, that's a total stretch! I don't see how anyone takes this group seriously, much less follows their guidelines. Craziness....you really can't argue with these people.

Quiet Heather wrote:Craziness....you really can't argue with these people.

So true. It puzzles me to no end when I see people that are wise in other areas in their lives, but when it comes to health, all of the knowledge they have about what makes good science is completely ignored. It's like I meet someone now, and I think they're pretty intelligent, and then they talk matter-of-factly about the space aliens they know. That's exactly how I feel when they start talking about this garbage--I just can't believe anyone really believes it. They're set on wanting to believe stories and charismatic people, rather than science, and that's the road they've chosen.

I also know not to get into arguments--if I sense they're sincerely wanting to know something, then I share a little with them. But I definitely don't get into the discussions of "saturated fat is good for you, etc." Last year I sat through a "health presentation" (not knowing it was a WAPF person), and I had to bite my tongue the entire time. I so badly wanted to say something, but I knew from the way people were gobbling up her information, that they'd want nothing to do with someone talking about a plant-based diet. Honestly, the few things that I read many years ago from the WAPF were so unbelievable, I thought no one could possibly fall for it.

One thing I think is so ridiculous is this insistence I see in moms wanting to find "milk" for their families. I even saw one family where they had dairy allergies, so the dad made this huge barn to hold the goats they bought, simply to get the goat milk. I was in disbelief when I saw all of the work, time and money involved in this endeavor, not to mention my saddness for the goats being used this way.

momof4 wrote:[
So true. It puzzles me to no end when I see people that are wise in other areas in their lives, but when it comes to health, all of the knowledge they have about what makes good science is completely ignored. It's like I meet someone now, and I think they're pretty intelligent, and then they talk matter-of-factly about the space aliens they know. That's exactly how I feel when they start talking about this garbage--I just can't believe anyone really believes it. They're set on wanting to believe stories and charismatic people, rather than science, and that's the road they've chosen.

Yes, that's it exactly. I frequent another message board where there is an entire forum dedicated to this WAPF stuff, only they call it "Traditional Foods" and it is mind blowing the things that they think are good nutrition. Of course, they do not want to hear that very low fat plant based diets are, in fact, very much "traditional food" for billions of people. And forget about approaching them with any scientific studies at all - if it's been published in a mainstream journal, they won't believe it because it's mainstream. Yet, the WAPF website uses their cherry-picked published studies to "prove" their points. Where's the 'head spinning' smilie when you need it?

Quiet Heather wrote:And forget about approaching them with any scientific studies at all - if it's been published in a mainstream journal, they won't believe it because it's mainstream.

Exactly.