Dr. McDougall's Online Discussion Board

As a kid we went to Pike's peak park in Iowa. I was raised in Iowa. Most people do not believe me when I say there is a Pike's peak in Iowa.

Eastern Iowa along the Mississippi is a very beautiful place. As a little kid we lived in the Quad Cities and one place in East Davenport, we were close to the river.

Sounds like you have been super busy.

Wow, John, small world, huh?

After processing a lot of my thoughts about the weekend I think the biggest change in my thinking has to be my feelings about the viability of other food plans. Specifically, I don't care as much if other food plans can produce the same health and weightloss benefits as a plant-based diet.

Why? or What do I mean? Well, prior to last weekend, it was really important to me to be able to prove that every other weightloss plan was bad and, at the very minimum, would harm your health. Maybe you could lose weight but, fer sure, you're increasing your risk for disease.

I work in a hospital and many of the MDs and PhDs I work with are on some form of the Paleo diet. These are not stupid people. These are not people who just jump on the latest popular bandwagon without doing their research. I work in research center for cats' sake. If you follow my journal you know their weightloss success and seeming health improvements have really bothered me. Not only do they appear to be thriving (flying in the face of all the McD/Essy/Barnard/.... proponents' claims to the contrary). Nobody is plateauing halfway to goal. No one looks sickly or low in energy. No added health problems have arisen. One woman has gone as far as reversing her signs of MS! Literally tossing her wheel chair aside, hopping on her bicycle and riding away!!! Meanwhile, I can't stick to the plan and when I do string a few weeks together I never seem to lose the weight other people lose.

I think my biggest frustration comes from wanting this WOE to be easier for me to follow. I need other people to be on board so they don't temp me with their food. I need to see everyone else suffer from their food choices to drill the message into my brain that I have to stick to my food plan. My addictive, manipulative, obstinant brain cannot see the inconsistencies without using them for evil gain. I need Dr. McDougall (and all the other plant-based promoters) to be 100% right and I need everyone else to be 100% wrong. I need everyone to see that too. Get on board or pay the consequences!!!

I know I'm not articulating this well but I think it was important for me to convince everyone else of the superiority of this plan in the hopes that I would then convince myself. Even though, I think I already believe this WOE is superior there must be some tiny part that doubts this belief when I see other people doing better than me on plans that were supposed to be bad for them.

So, what did I see this weekend to change my thinking? Let me start by saying this weekend was not about the McDougall Plan. I didn't realize that when I signed up to go. However, I'm really glad it was what it was. There were speakers on addiction, climate change, epi-genetics, evolutionary biology, and planetary survival. What I learned was that it doesn't matter if Paleo diets help people because we cannot sustain the current level of animal consumption much longer. We would need 3 planets to continue raising livestock at the current levels given population growth. Then, if you imagine a shift in animal consumption to accommodate a Paleo lifestyle we will eat and destroy everything left on the planet. All that will be left is ourselves and then what? One person said, "We can change to plant based diets voluntarily, at our own pace, or we can be forced to change when we've destroyed everything else." Frighteningly, that day is MUCH closer than most people realize. One speaker said if we do not reduce our animal consumption by at LEAST 25% by 2017 there will be a catostrophic climate event. 2017!!! 4 years!!! That's it! Of course, we are not reducing our reliance on animal foods. We are increasing it!

Dr. McDougall said, "Even if they're right [Paleo-diet proponents] they are wrong." That statement changed my thinking completely. I no longer care if other diets have the same health benefits as a whole-foods plant-based diet because it does not matter. Our survival depends on moving away from animal food regardless of the impact it has on our individual bodies. So, even if all my colleagues really are improving their health with Paleo it doesn't matter.

One speaker said we expand our scope of compassion as we age. When we're 2 years old all we care about is ourselves. When we're 3, we realize mom and dad should be protected too. Next, we want to protect our little sister, then our mates at school. Suddenly, what happens to our town matters, our country, and eventually, the planet. This is the natural progression. At some point our own success, beauty, and sexual gratification ceases to be the most important thing. Eventually, we shift our thinking to our children and our grandchildren. We want to protect their future and work to leave something good behind for them.

The Paleo plan feels like the 2-year old who doesn't care what happens to anyone but himself. The McDougall Plan cares about the grandchildren. I don't want to be one of those people who consumes everything in sight until there's nothing left. I've lived my whole life that way and I'm ready to stop. I'm ready to lift my face out of the trough and see who else needs to eat. Who else needs a drink of water? Who is suffering because I can't [won't] stop indulging my every desire?

Such powerful messages at the ASW. I'm touched deeply by everything I heard.

By the by, I got to meet f1jim!!! And Roberta Joiner!! Star McDougallers sharing their experience, strength and hope so that others may be relieved of the pain, and misery, and sadness that comes from living in a cycle of addiction and a baseline level of existence.

THANK YOU!!!!

I used to believe that I had to have support; had to convince other people; had to prove I was right, and many of the things I think I hear you talking about. Recently, I'm finally beginning to realize that those delusions are all part of the bondage of self; the delusion that I am such an important person that an imperfect, impersonal, impermanent universe cares what I do and say.

Recently I am embarking upon an attempt to be more comfortable seeking my own truth and my own liberation. I try to relate to humanity as a whole, instead of looking for one or two intimate, supportive relationships. I'm detaching. I don't care how many fools make themselves sick or how many doctors are stupid. I'm trying to get my own little world small enough that I can live in it, at peace with myself. I'm really the only person that counts.

Hi Kelly,

Thank you for the wonderful summary of the Advanced Study Weekend. As usual you communicate in such a way that I feel like you are inside my head representing my thoughts in a profound and eloquent way.

Your last post is "refrigerator magnet" worthy. That means I am saving it and printing it and tacking it to my refrigerator so I can have a constant reminder of why we do what we do.

Thanks again!

Thanks so much for sharing your insights from the ASW. It sounds like such a great experience. I hope to attend one in the future.

Lee Mack wrote:I used to believe that I had to have support; had to convince other people; had to prove I was right, and many of the things I think I hear you talking about. Recently, I'm finally beginning to realize that those delusions are all part of the bondage of self; the delusion that I am such an important person that an imperfect, impersonal, impermanent universe cares what I do and say.

Recently I am embarking upon an attempt to be more comfortable seeking my own truth and my own liberation. I try to relate to humanity as a whole, instead of looking for one or two intimate, supportive relationships. I'm detaching. I don't care how many fools make themselves sick or how many doctors are stupid. I'm trying to get my own little world small enough that I can live in it, at peace with myself. I'm really the only person that counts.

My apologies! I am pretty hard on myself, and it sometimes comes across as being hard on others. I just re-read my last post, and I sound like I'm angry at other people...but I'm angry at myself. I'm hard on myself, and it comes across as being judgmental of others. My apologies.
Lee

Hi Lee,

I didn't read your message that way at all. No need to apologize. I like what you're trying to do and am trying something similar myself.

I'm very sad today. I'm visiting some family this weekend. My cousin and her husband and daughter. My cousin was vegetarian and 2 years ago switched to vegan after watching Forks Over Knives. Anyhoo, she sent me the following email this morning:

"Ok, so I have some news that would probably be better processed over time rather than dropping it down on you when you get here...we are meat eaters now. For dh and dd, the meat hiatus was only 2 years but for me it was 24 and it was pretty weird going back to meat. It's kind of a story but I'll boil it down as much as I can...I had been feeling like CRAP for about 2 years or so. But always mustering through and putting on a brave face. I was feeling so run down but would always chalk it up to something--my job (at the time), the move, the heat, etc. I would have to take naps or lay down nearly every day which was not something I was prone to in the past. I thought it could be B-12 since we weren't supplementing but the same issues didn't seem to come up with dh & dd so I was confused. Anyway, I made an appointment to get some blood work done just to be safe. 2 days after the blood draw, but before I got the results, we watched a documentary about being vegan vs eating meat. So much of what was said was pertinent to me...the exhaustion, feeling run-down all the time, feeling sore, feeling bloated, gassy, always wanting to eat, and not sleeping well (which was weird because I was so tired but at night I was waking up all the time only to lie in bed for hours not sleeping). So--I decided that night I had tried many other things to help my situation, why not try meat? And not like McDonalds, Wendy's meat...high quality Whole Foods, organic meat. And eggs. So we experimented for what would be a trial period to see if we felt better. We immediately cut out bread, flour, corn, grains, beans, potatoes, and sugar. We ate veggies, fruit, nuts, and meat. Still no dairy products. And of course we kept the vegan cheese because who can live without stinky Diaya? Anyway, it took about 3 days for me to see a difference in my afternoon exhaustion. Dh & dd saw results, too. We've now been eating meat for about 2 months...we've seen a difference in many areas. All that to say...I've been a little worried about telling you. I don't want you to feel uncomfortable around us once you're here."

Sigh, everywhere I turn I see people switching to Paleo-type diets and improving how they feel. Meanwhile, I never change. I never get better. I never stop falling off the wagon. I never walk the walk or set a good example. I can't even say anything because what the *bleep* do I know?

As long as this is going to be a miserable post I'll just add that since I went off the Zoloft my anxiety has been through the roof. It's unbearable. It's strange because I just have this constant physical feeling of fear. It never goes away but doesn't really have a cause. If you've ever been really afraid of something (like getting bad news, getting fired) and you have that sick feeling when you think about it that's what I feel like all day long. I remember feeling like this the last time I fell off the wagon (over 9 years ago). That's when I went on the Zoloft. I thought it was because I was preparing to take my comprehensive exam. I quit drinking (on my own) while I prepared for my exam. The anxiety got so bad I couldn't sleep and I couldn't focus. I finally started drinking again just to get through the day. At least that's what I told myself. I don't feel like I'm going to drink but my eating has been bad.

I feel like a total failure at everything right now. I haven't been running consistently. I have a kitten staying with me for 10 days and I feel like that's causing a nervous breakdown. Every single TV show I watch makes me sob uncontrollably. I recommended a TV show to a friend. She didn't like it and I wanted to end the friendship (in my own mind - thank goodness I know enough to recognize the crazies).

I'm a heap and I just ate a package of Double Stuf Oreos. That'll help. Jeez. I'm not eating bad 100% of the time so I'm still clinging to this WOE. I had my usual oatmeal with blueberries and banana for breakfast and I had, er, wait, I forgot lunch. Damnit. I had to give a presentation at work today. I was super anxious about it (go figure). I guess I forgot to eat lunch. Whatev.

I'm sorry I'm such Debbie downer right now. I feel like the sky is falling.

Maybe I'll check in with some journals. That sometimes helps.

kkrichar ... thanks for the kinds words in my journal today, someday if I ever get to give a speech at a McDougall function it will start with me saying "Thank You" to Dr. McDougall, Jeff Novick and you. You really, REALLY helped me get my head around some of my struggles and short comings and freely gave me a sense of hope.

Now ... on to your last post.

Yeah, it stinks doesn't it. I did Paleo for 6 months and lost some weight and in some ways felt good. But, my joints felt worse and my skin and digestion were worse. I find it interesting how people "try" something but aren't truthful with themselves. "Oh, I tried that, it didn't work for me ..." Oh, really? How long, 2 hours? How detailed did you get? Paelo being pizza with all the meat toppings? For me, starting out with Dr. McDougall's plan I was kind of doing it and seeing results, but not RESULTS !!! Then I had that plateau that looking back was part of my operation recovery and part stress. Then last two months, I drilled down, got honest with myself and starting eating clean and Whoa, Nelly results. I am great at fooling myself and making excuses for not living the way I KNOW works. I was faithful to Paleo and tried to convince myself that is was the "Missing Dietary Truth" I had looked for, for so long. But, Dr. McDougall's "truth" resonates with me so much more and for me is working better. Now, I do "tweak" and have found I don't do great on grains. If I keep it to vegetables and potatoes ... world's my oyster. I start playing with whole grain waffles and maple syrup, rice cakes with hummus, rice milk and puffed rice with cinnamon on top ... etc. etc. etc. Guess what? I stall and don't feel amazing, I feel okay, but not A M A Z I N G. So sad, how I know that this will happen and yet I choose to live a sub-par life. John, your a goober sometimes and settle for less than your worth .... Why you dimwhit? (sorry, had to yell at myself a bit) So, if something doesn't work ... did you really try? ... and just because it sort of works doesn't mean it's the best thing for you or the world. Deep thoughts.

Anxiety ... Phew, that hits close to home. In my case I was able to wean off the meds onto natural replacements and ultimately off completely except for the occasional magnesium-powder supplement. My wife went Gluten-Free a couple years ago and I started following it too about 4-5 months ago. WOW !!! It did help my anxiety and mountain high/valley low mental state. Anxiety is hard to talk about because it seems people think you can "snap out of it" or just "will" yourself better. For me, what I eat has a direct correlation to my mood and also the stress around me has to be curtailed where possible. Some folk I choose not to hang around with and some situations I don't put myself in. How's that go? ... I can't control the situation, but I can control how I react. Your not alone in this, you'll be thought of often.

I don't post as often anymore because I don't think I have anything to say, things that I HAD to write in my journal are no longer popping up as often. I enjoy reading and following everyone else's experiences and lives. But, those first months I NEEDED this journal, I NEEDED folk like you reaching out and commenting on my Journal ... it let me know I'm not alone, I'm alive and I'm worth something. Your posts are so real and I'm impressed at your bravery and willingness, "to go there". Thank You for being the training wheels I needed as I learned how to ride the McDougall-plan bicycle.

The more I got to know the online kkrichar I kind of chuckled because in some ways we are polar opposites, however, we can be there and support one another in a common goal ... our health and the manner we are accomplishing it. It seems to often folk concentrate on differences and not similarities. I've received a few personal messages not friendly with how I write my journal or things I say. Thank You for always giving me the benefit of the doubt and for showing a kindness I did not always deserve.

Keep at it, your worth fighting for and know that there are things on this earth that only you can accomplish. We need you and are blessed that you so freely give of yourself.

So, I will take a little more of your grace and ask you forgive me for hijacking your Journal thread here.

If you don't hear from me for long spats of time just know your not alone and there is a couple in Pennsylvania that considers you a friend and part of their McDougall family. Someday, somehow we'll meet and I'll be able to tell you to your face, "Thank You for being instrumental in the turning around of my life".

All the best kkrichar, you deserve it ...
John

Yes, all the feelings, all the anxiety, this too shall pass. The grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence. Spend some time on paleo and low carb boards and guess what you find? Lot's of what you are describing.
Time has a way of healing these things so let it work the magic for you.
Truly, as JT said, you are not alone.
f1jim

You are not alone and I am glad you are here. It is progress not perfection.

As far as the whole Paleo thing goes, I think this WOE is Paleo, the real Paleo. We are designed to eat plants. Now, if there are not enough plants, then we can eat animals to keep from starving. Heck, we can eat other humans to keep from starving. The fact is, we were designed to eat the foods found in the produce department. Next time someone says Paleo, I am going to tell them I am doing plant based Paleo. Heck, I might start my own Paleo movement.

I am glad you picked up Oreos instead of a drink. I am also very glad you have a journal. We can do this!

Debbie, I know we don't know each other, but i would just like to reach out to you, hon. Anxiety is real. And I absolutely know what you mean by the crazies. They take over my mind, too. I can't see around them often. It drives my husband and daughter crazy, but sometimes that is just where I am. We have to accept ourselves and love ourselves exactly where we are, exactly how we are. You are worthy, and you are going to be okay.

Debbie, do you have someone you can rely on for unconditional support? Are you close to your mom, for example? Everybody needs one person in their life who believes in them totally. I am going to pray that you have, or will soon have, that person.

And you are not a failure! Not at all! This WOE can be a challenge! And you are picking yourself up from those Oreos, and getting back on track. You are a success!:)

And major hats off for not taking a drink. That is a really tough addiction to break. And it sounds like you have done it. Another success!:)

How can we help, Debbie? What would be most encouraging?

Your story is so inspiring. I identified with so much of what you said. Alcohol and cigarettes can trigger a physical compulsion/craving with just one drink or smoke. So abstinence is paramount. I have found that certain foods trigger cravings for more of the same food - wheat and chocolate being two for me. I decided to quit wheat a year ago, and for three days I was dreaming about bread quite literally and somehow feeling deprived. But abstinence cured the cravings and as long as I don't have ANY, I'm good. Moderation does not work for alcohol or cigarettes for the majority, and neither does it work for some foods. Dr. Davis talks about the wheat protein gliadin producing a fragment peptide that can act like an opioid, called gliadorphin or gluteomorphin. Gluten, another protein in wheat (gluten is composed of gliadin), when partially digested produces fragment peptides that can also act as opioids, called gluten exorphins. Folks may disagree with Dr. Davis, but it's a sure thing there's nothing in broccoli which triggers the opiate receptors in the brain. I have excellent mind control over nuts, seeds etc. and can eat just one walnut half period if I want to. But for those foods that trigger the unpleasant craving, it's total abstinence, one day at a time. I'm eating healthy to enjoy life and be a winner, not to waste time wishing I had something or feeling guilty if I indulge. With the help of Dr. McDougall and others, I'm able to 'think the food through' and make good choices. Now I eat to live, not live to eat. And to tell you the truth, I DO have a secret craving for beautiful succulent vegetables but that's OK.

kkrichar, the words and deeds you share in your journal show someone who has an amazing depth of strength and resolve.

You inspire so many ... so know, when you share what you shared recently that same whole bunch is thinking, remembering, and praying for you.

I'm so glad you decided to Journal. There are many sources of wisdom and insight in this dietary realm, for many of us we read your journal for truths we often are ashamed or afraid to admit to ourselves. Your open words help us find our way and through that we are able to better come to terms with ourselves. I believe you should be a therapist of some sort. Sharing is such a wonderful gateway to teaching and ultimately truth.

So often you have proven so much, don't forget how much you've accomplished.

You're a fighter and a survivor.

Go forth and Kick BUTT, your good at it.

There's an army of folk supporting you in their own way ... please, don't ever forget that.

All the best,
John

You guys are SO awesome! Sniff. I'm getting a little choked up here. Thank you, every single one of you, for stopping by and encouraging me. You have no idea how much it helps.

f1jim, before I read your post I had refilled my Zoloft prescription. However, after reading your post I decided not to take it. I think you're right. Healing still needs to happen. I need to give my body time to adjust.

My attitude has been much better the last couple days. Even the anxiety is been better. I'm still stressed about that darn kitten, though. I don't know why the little thing is causing me so much discomfort. My poor cat, Willow, just hates the kitten and won't come out of the bedroom. I feel bad for her and then I feel bad for the kitten when he has to go in his room. My middle-aged grumpy cats don't want to play with him and he has so much energy. Sigh. I leave for my meat-eating cousin's house tomorrow and when I get back on Sunday the kitten goes home.

My cousin lives very close to Whole Foods so I plan to pick up some Health Starts Here stuff. I've wanted to check it out but we don't have a Whole Foods where I live. I can grab McDougall cups if I want and my cousin is making a big pot of veggie soup. I'll be fine. I'm still really sad that she gave up on living vegan. I know there has to be more to the story. She was giving me a brief synopsis in the email. I just can't believe she wouldn't try an elimination diet first or something. I mean she hadn't eaten meat for 24 years! I can't imagine she would just switch over without more thought. I'm sure I'll here more about it this weekend. I just feel like I can't say much to her because I don't have my own experience to share. You can't tell someone who has personal experience of changing how they feel that their feelings are inconsistent with what you've read. People don't care what you've read. They care how they feel. If they see you change your life then they might listen but if you haven't changed your own life what credibility do you have? I might mention the sustainability of the planet but she is buying organic foods. I hope she doesn't increase her risk of other diseases. She's very thin and has always eaten relatively healthy stuff so her risk for many diseases is probably lower than most Americans. Right now I just need to focus on me. I think I'm extra bummed because the one place I could go where everyone ate just like me no longer exists. Now I'm back to being the only member of my family who believes in this WOE. That's not entirely true. My mom still tries to eat this way and her sister just borrowed her copy of the China Study.

It doesn't matter. My health. My life. How I feel. The footprint I leave on this planet. That's what matters. Lead by example.

Thanks again for the support. Every single word touched my heart and shored up my strength to stay on task. You guys are the best!!!! My cousin and I are running a 5K race Saturday morning! Wish me luck.